yes.

From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
<= b>Sent: Tuesday, February 5, = 2013 10:15 AM
Subject:= Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}

s/krinu/krici?

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:24 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com><= /span> wrote:

Inrect questions are a problem for English (= and familiar language) speakers because (since at least I-E days) one= set of pronouns get used in a variety of ways. So "He asked who the = murderer was" involves a clear indirect question, a transform from "He aske= d, 'Who is the murderer?'", but "He knows who the murderer is" seems only r= emotely related to a question, perhaps as "He know the correct answer to th= e question 'Who is the murderer?'". But then *"He believes who the mu= rder is" (OK in Lojban, of course: ko'a krinu lo du'u makau morgau) could o= nly mean "He believes some answer to the question "Who is the murderer?'" (= "He believes he knows ..."). And when we get to something like "They differ in what they wear", the connection to question= s has virtually disappeared ('They give different answers to the question 'What do you wear?'"?!) What they wear is in Lojban just lo= se dasni (or, in the example, maybe te), similar to "what he said" in "He = said who the murder was, but I didn't hear what he said". In this las= t case, even the first is pretty clearly not about a question but rather an= assertion with the crucial part left out ("He said '... is the murderer'")= All of this got shifted to Lojban (culturally neutral, ma derriere) = as an indirect question, rather than the several things it might reasonably= be -- relatives of {ce'u} with matter of focus thrown in mainly.&nbs= p; All that being said, {makau} seems to work in place, despite the incongr= uities in the semantics. Of course, it would be somewhat easier if th= e use of {ce'u} were not limited to abstraction, so that we could say {lo s= e dasni be ce'u} without throwing in the irrelevant property marker and fic= tional indirect question. On the other hand, the separation is sometimes needed, since (in English) "He knows who the murderer is" is qui= te different from "He know the murderer" (something someone always says in = closed suspect list mysteries).

On a different topic slightly= , the raising of sumti in many cognitive and phatic predicates is a terribl= e mistake, since it opens violations of opacity right and left, since thing= s mentioned in propositions or properties or what have you need not be in t= he world in which the propositions, etc. are referred to, but sumti raising= puts them there: from "John mistakenly believes there are unicorns" one ge= ts in two steps to "There are some things that John mistakenly believes the= re to be".

From: Jorge Llamb=EDas &l= t;jjllambias@gmail.com>
= To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 2= , 2013 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> {djuno2} is= actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the gimste
> made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a pr= operty
> of the djuno3.

We could say that "djuno" is a sumti r= aising predicate, in the
linguistic sense of "raising"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is the
s= emantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of
almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of
od= dball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in
thi= s category.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this messag= e because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban@googlegroups.com= .
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For m= ore options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

<= div class=3D"yiv794986552HOEnZb">
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut.