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Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}
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On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>
> {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful things it should=
=20
> mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows the du'u tha=
t=20
> is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno-du'u=20
> definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to djuno3 in=
=20
> some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se djuno} is not =
a=20
> complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" semantically either. The=
=20
> latter is redundant, and could just as easily be done with srana. (That i=
s,=20
> {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda ke=
i=20
> ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}).
>
> That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use jai=
=20
> hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste=
=20
> version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemente=
d=20
> anyways.
>

Could you please provide real examples of  djuno with {ka}-meaning and=20
djuno with {srana} meaning.

Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they also show the same=20
dualism?


> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com<jav=
ascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com<java=
script:>>=20
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the=20
>> gimste
>> > made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a=20
>> property
>> > of the djuno3.
>>
>> We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in the
>> linguistic sense of "raising"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is the
>> semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of
>> almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of
>> oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in
>> this category.)
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>> --
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s=20
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>

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<br><br>On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">{djuno} bothers me, because there's tw=
o different useful things it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, wh=
ere the speaker knows the du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3=
, and there's a djuno-du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, whic=
h pertains to djuno3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete";=
 {lo se djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" se=
mantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just as easily be don=
e with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} =3D=3D {mi =
djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi dj=
uno fi ko'a}).<br>
<br>That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use j=
ai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste =
version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemented =
anyways.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Could you please provide real =
examples of &nbsp;djuno with {ka}-meaning and djuno with {srana} meaning.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they =
also show the same dualism?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left: 1ex;">
<br>mi'e la latro'a mu'o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 2, 2=
013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascri=
pt:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"u0nZys5OmqYJ">jjlla...@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob =
Errington &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mail=
to=3D"u0nZys5OmqYJ">nict...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the gi=
mste<br>
&gt; made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a pr=
operty<br>
&gt; of the djuno3.<br>
<br>
</div>We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in the<br>
linguistic sense of "raising"<br>
<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics)" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Raising_(linguistics)</a> since its=
 x3 is the<br>
semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of<br>
almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of<br>
oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in<br>
this category.)<br>
<div><br>
mu'o mi'e xorxes<br>
<br>
</div><div><div>--<br>
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<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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