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<1360169920.78314.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:35:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.219.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93b63749995ac04d51297ed X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae93b63749995ac04d51297ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Feb 6, 2013 9:58 AM, "John E Clifford" wrote: > > Good. > But it would be nice to formulate a general principle about their use that could apply across the board. I don't particularly see any reason to confine the usage to {du'u} (except for the "indirect question" label) or to {ka}: what he said is presumably a proposition (or a slew of them) but what he saw is probably an event or a sensation and what a pair have in common might be just about anything: a property, a piece of property, a kinship, a genetic mutation, and so on forever. Those all sound like (types of) properties to me. > Of course, that would suggest the same sort of extension for the lambda term (including making it more useful), which ain't gonna happen. > > > ________________________________ > From: Remo Dentato > To: lojban > Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:16 AM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau} > > To those still staying with the original {makau} & {mokau} question. > > Thanks! I'm not quite sure I'll be able to use them properly but I started see what they are intended for. > > mu'o mi'e la .remod. > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:15 PM, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote: >>> >>> {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful things it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows the du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno-du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to djuno3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" semantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just as easily be done with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}). >>> >>> That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets you use jai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain the gimste version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be implemented anyways. >> >> >> Could you please provide real examples of djuno with {ka}-meaning and djuno with {srana} meaning. >> >> Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they also show the same dualism? >> >>> >>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: >>>> > >>>> > {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn't because the gimste >>>> > made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, the djuno2 is a property >>>> > of the djuno3. >>>> >>>> We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in the >>>> linguistic sense of "raising" >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is the >>>> semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can be said of >>>> almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are a couple of >>>> oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka but are not in >>>> this category.) >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --14dae93b63749995ac04d51297ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Feb 6, 2013 9:58 AM, "John E Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Good.
> But it would be nice to formulate a general principle about their use = that could apply across the board.=A0 I don't particularly see any reas= on to confine the usage to {du'u} (except for the "indirect questi= on" label) or to {ka}: what he said is presumably a proposition (or a = slew of them) but what he saw is probably an event or a sensation and what = a pair have in common might be just about anything: a property, a piece of = property, a kinship, a genetic mutation, and so on forever.

Those all sound like (types of) properties to me.

>=A0 Of course, that would suggest the same sort of exten= sion for the lambda term (including making it more useful), which ain't= gonna happen.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@= gmail.com>
> To: lojban <lojban@googl= egroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:16 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}
>
> To those still staying with the original {makau} & {mokau} questio= n.
>
> Thanks! I'm not quite sure I'll be able to use them properly b= ut I started see what they are intended for.
>
> mu'o mi'e la .remod.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:15 PM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>>>
>>> {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful t= hings it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker = knows the du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there&= #39;s a djuno-du'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pe= rtains to djuno3 in some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete&= quot;; {lo se djuno} is not a complete bridi syntactically but is not a &qu= ot;fact" semantically either. The latter is redundant, and could just = as easily be done with srana. (That is, {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi sra= na ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei ko'a} and {mi djuno= lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}).
>>>
>>> That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets = you use jai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain th= e gimste version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be= implemented anyways.
>>
>>
>> Could you please provide real examples of =A0djuno with {ka}-meani= ng and djuno with {srana} meaning.
>>
>> Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they also show the s= ame dualism?
>>
>>>
>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn= 't because the gimste
>>>> > made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, t= he djuno2 is a property
>>>> > of the djuno3.
>>>>
>>>> We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising pre= dicate, in the
>>>> linguistic sense of "raising"
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since its x3 is= the
>>>> semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can b= e said of
>>>> almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are = a couple of
>>>> oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take k= a but are not in
>>>> this category.)
>>>>
>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google Groups "lojban" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails f= rom it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>
>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> =A0
>> =A0
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =A0
> =A0
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =A0
> =A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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--14dae93b63749995ac04d51297ed--