Received: from mail-ee0-f58.google.com ([74.125.83.58]:53916) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U3FGu-0004Yo-7X; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:31 -0800 Received: by mail-ee0-f58.google.com with SMTP id b15sf576430eek.13 for ; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=trzsgvwqMnDKyRe3ZjXCUZLZDxAdUjQJaE8oBa2dRQU=; b=Js+SQ1FF4QybOchDV5GDRVv+kL3x3nQ/ruYCGeiRw/nGQVaSBjxyUFjUxxHgvcRkRM +si6qt44nNjmZDhlu6Nviz3UIl3/+mZqehwAODs7U6aLG771gupXmwSuiF7AxZrxf9Bh NQ5hcS+iYiKuvDL+Euz9tdgLffULrVzh5H1l7BSiDg9vys1xbqobINb5aU75zX5znP+b ymJtFKhPMXxvuG51/LnWTwsetBa4Ul3rFWeI2yw/HAUshTQPdRtytMWdMy5UZOgYa2J+ x4urqIlNxpRK1TkJu01ajkBDiggafR23oAf5xZX8dyq1jNnghDBkh9JqZvLglIMzv6Go BfEw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:x-received:received-spf :mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=trzsgvwqMnDKyRe3ZjXCUZLZDxAdUjQJaE8oBa2dRQU=; b=BFCuwRylR3wG1izty5G4/VgT3UdgWWMrwe/0A7GRw0avgKgjzpkJ8/SecvxBRhdVRC pWWH6ATu6hbc3O3U0mUe99iI69/E+Dhd0qixyfKgMeauWLDk8IxOaLcvNe0I7A5aAFPi UlpdCxGFDAbIGKyhABIfOD7l12p3qTQAiRch+WBIfUzwvwsYFwmvGe7SOjwRVDtZuSyc XYyQ6LLCTHJV6PdsRnScAzYHldt6aIDidWxFSLAyHj/sL2Mu0S6JBF2mxHLMkUnBlsHQ VNoz63cyDIX2IIdvu9ZzbVZ8kUKTOLqsHUstVgv3Q9ert09MX6YTDVJ6TtQHcPmBokQx Ewsg== X-Received: by 10.180.20.68 with SMTP id l4mr458907wie.7.1360196595627; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.85.137 with SMTP id h9ls457788wiz.0.gmail; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.204.9.140 with SMTP id l12mr2543204bkl.7.1360196594270; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.204.9.140 with SMTP id l12mr2543203bkl.7.1360196594252; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x234.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c03::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9si1849421bki.2.2013.02.06.16.23.14 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::234; Received: by mail-la0-x234.google.com with SMTP id fs12so1994847lab.25 for ; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.28.9 with SMTP id x9mr12066056lbg.27.1360196594035; Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.22.34 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Feb 2013 16:23:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1359915851.31635.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References:

<1359915851.31635.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 21:23:13 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 3:24 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Inrect questions are a problem for English (and familiar language) speakers > because (since at least I-E days) one set of pronouns get used in a variety > of ways. So "He asked who the murderer was" involves a clear indirect > question, a transform from "He asked, 'Who is the murderer?'", but "He knows > who the murderer is" seems only remotely related to a question, perhaps as > "He know the correct answer to the question 'Who is the murderer?'". You can see the connection to the question by rephrasing as follows: He asked who the murderer was --> Who was the murderer? He asked that. He knows who the murderer is. --> Who is the murderer? He knows that. > But > then *"He believes who the murder is" (OK in Lojban, of course: ko'a krinu > lo du'u makau morgau) could only mean "He believes some answer to the > question "Who is the murderer?'" Or sticking to more idiomatic English: He has an opinion as to who the murderer is. --> Who is the murderer? He has an opinion as to that. > ("He believes he knows ..."). And when we > get to something like "They differ in what they wear", the connection to > questions has virtually disappeared ('They give different answers to the > question 'What do you wear?'"?!) Certainly not! What if the things that are different were things that could not give answers? They differ in what they wear. --> What do they wear? They differ in that. > What they wear is in Lojban just lo se > dasni (or, in the example, maybe te), similar to "what he said" in "He said > who the murder was, but I didn't hear what he said". "What they wear" _sometimes_ is "lo se dasni", but other times it is "'lo ka ce'u dasni ma kau" or "lo du'u ko'a dasni ma kau". When it is "lo se dasni", it is not an indirect question. "What he said" in "I didn't hear what he said" is "lo pu se cusku be ko'a", also not an indirect question. > In this last case, > even the first is pretty clearly not about a question but rather an > assertion with the crucial part left out ("He said '... is the murderer'") It's an idirect question though: He said who the murderer is. Who is the murderer? He said that. > All of this got shifted to Lojban (culturally neutral, ma derriere) as an > indirect question, rather than the several things it might reasonably be -- > relatives of {ce'u} with matter of focus thrown in mainly. If the name "relative question" for "ma kau" bothers you, you can give it some other name, but it is not used for several disjoint things. If only reported questions can count as true indirect questions then think of "indirect question" as a kind of metonym for the class of things of which reported questions are an important member. > All that being > said, {makau} seems to work in place, despite the incongruities in the > semantics. Of course, it would be somewhat easier if the use of {ce'u} were > not limited to abstraction, so that we could say {lo se dasni be ce'u} > without throwing in the irrelevant property marker and fictional indirect > question. On the other hand, the separation is sometimes needed, since (in > English) "He knows who the murderer is" is quite different from "He know the > murderer" (something someone always says in closed suspect list mysteries). That's not an issue in Lojban, because the indirect question one would be "djuno (lo du'u ma kau catra)" and the one that is not an indirect question would be "se slabu (lo catra)", with two different senses of "know". An example where it would be ambiguous is this. Suppose she knows who the murderer is, I also know who the murderer is, but she doesn't know that I know it. Now "she knows what I know" is ambiguous. In the indirect question sense it is false (ko'a djuno lo du'u mi djuno ma kau). but in the non-question sense it is true (ko'a djuno lo se djuno be mi).. In English you could disambiguate by saying "she knows what it is that I know" (indirect question) vs. "she knows that which I (also) know" (not an indirect question). In general, if you can replace "what" by "what it is that" and keep the sense it's an indirect question, if you can replace it by "that which" it is not an indirect question. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.