From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 12:35= PM
Subject: Re: [lojb= an] {makau} {mokau}

On Feb 6, 2013 9:58 AM, "John E Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Good.
> But it would be nice to formulate a general principle about their use = that could apply across the board. I don't particularly see any reaso= n to confine the usage to {du'u} (except for the "indirect question" label)= or to {ka}: what he said is presumably a proposition (or a slew of them) b= ut what he saw is probably an event or a sensation and what a pair have in = common might be just about anything: a property, a piece of property, a kin= ship, a genetic mutation, and so on forever.

Those all sound like (types of) properties to me.

> Of course, that would suggest the same sort of = extension for the lambda term (including making it more useful), which ain'= t gonna happen.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gm= ail.com>
> To: lojban <lojban@go= oglegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:16 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [lojban] {makau} {mokau}
>
> To those still staying with the original {makau} & {mokau} questio= n.
>
> Thanks! I'm not quite sure I'll be able to use them properly but I sta= rted see what they are intended for.
>
> mu'o mi'e la .remod.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:15 PM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 5, 2013 8:15:10 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>>>
>>> {djuno} bothers me, because there's two different useful thing= s it should mean. There's a djuno-ka definition, where the speaker knows th= e du'u that is created by applying djuno2 to djuno3, and there's a djuno-du= 'u definition, where the speaker knows djuno2, which pertains to djuno3 in = some way. The former is in some sense "incomplete"; {lo se djuno} is not a = complete bridi syntactically but is not a "fact" semantically either. The l= atter is redundant, and could just as easily be done with srana. (That is, = {mi djuno lo du'u broda noi srana ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno lo du'u broda kei = ko'a} and {mi djuno lo srana be ko'a} =3D=3D {mi djuno fi ko'a}).
>>>
>>> That said, simply disregarding djuno3 and leaving djuno2 lets = you use jai hackery to obtain the ka version and srana hackery to obtain th= e gimste version. Of course all of this is just tinkering that won't be imp= lemented anyways.
>>
>>
>> Could you please provide real examples of djuno with {ka}-me= aning and djuno with {srana} meaning.
>>
>> Another question. What about morji, jimpe? Do they also show the s= ame dualism?
>>
>>>
>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > {djuno2} is actually a ka, but we pretend that it isn= 't because the gimste
>>>> > made its definition clumsy to use that way. Indeed, t= he djuno2 is a property
>>>> > of the djuno3.
>>>>
>>>> We could say that "djuno" is a sumti raising predicate, in= the
>>>> linguistic sense of "raising"
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) since i= ts x3 is the
>>>> semantic argument of an embedded predicate. The same can b= e said of
>>>> almost all predicates that take a ka-argument. (There are = a couple of
>>>> oddball predicates that the gi'uste says should take ka bu= t are not in
>>>> this category.)
>>>>
>>>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>>>
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>>>
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