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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:21:58 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu}
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On Friday, February 8, 2013 10:48:26 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> On Thursday, February 07, 2013 21:18:13 la gleki wrote: 
> > Many are speaking these days about internal place structure of brivla 
> > (relations between djuno2 and djuno3 is one example) which has been 
> > probably inspired by gua\spi. 
> > 
> > I just found another example, a little more interesting. 
> > 
> > {cortu} x1 hurts/feels pain/hurt at locus x2. 
> > 
> > What this brivla should really look like is 
> > {ko'a cortu lo broda be vo'a} 
> > e.g. 
> > {mi cortu lo stedu be mi} 
> > {mi cortu lo tuple be mi} 
> > 
> > But if we remove one of {mi} in any example this won't lead to any 
> > ambiguity. Indeed, where can i feel pain if not in some part of me? 
> > Of course such technologies as described in Avatar film might raise this 
> > question again but even then the avatar controlled by you would be a 
> part 
> > of your double body. 
>
> This is called a twiddler, as "mi cortu lo birka be do" is nonsensical in 
> the 
> same way that "I twiddle your thumbs" is. Similarly: 
> .i mi darxi do lo birka be fo'a lo trixe be ko'a 
> .i mi sanli lo loldi lo jamfu be do 
> See http://kith.org/logos/words/lower/t.html . 
>

Thanks for the link. The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the 
following sentence from Tatoeba. 

"My back hurts."

If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it)
then we have three options.

1. mi cortu lo bekpi
2. cortu lo bekpi be mi
3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi

The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations 
between sumti in a nice way.
I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way.
May be
4. bekpi je selcortu mi ?

I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't.



> Pierre 
> -- 
> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. 
>
>

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<br><br>On Friday, February 8, 2013 10:48:26 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Thursday, February 07, 2013 =
21:18:13 la gleki wrote:
<br>&gt; Many are speaking these days about internal place structure of bri=
vla
<br>&gt; (relations between djuno2 and djuno3 is one example) which has bee=
n
<br>&gt; probably inspired by gua\spi.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; I just found another example, a little more interesting.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; {cortu} x1 hurts/feels pain/hurt at locus x2.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; What this brivla should really look like is
<br>&gt; {ko'a cortu lo broda be vo'a}
<br>&gt; e.g.
<br>&gt; {mi cortu lo stedu be mi}
<br>&gt; {mi cortu lo tuple be mi}
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; But if we remove one of {mi} in any example this won't lead to any
<br>&gt; ambiguity. Indeed, where can i feel pain if not in some part of me=
?
<br>&gt; Of course such technologies as described in Avatar film might rais=
e this
<br>&gt; question again but even then the avatar controlled by you would be=
 a part
<br>&gt; of your double body.
<br>
<br>This is called a twiddler, as "mi cortu lo birka be do" is nonsensical =
in the=20
<br>same way that "I twiddle your thumbs" is. Similarly:
<br>.i mi darxi do lo birka be fo'a lo trixe be ko'a
<br>.i mi sanli lo loldi lo jamfu be do
<br>See <a href=3D"http://kith.org/logos/words/lower/t.html" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://kith.org/logos/words/<wbr>lower/t.html</a> .
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the link. The "problem" app=
eared when i tried to translate the following sentence from Tatoeba.&nbsp;<=
/div><div><br></div><div>"My back hurts."</div><div><br></div><div>If we as=
sume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it)</div><div>then =
we have three options.</div><div><br></div><div>1. mi cortu lo bekpi</div><=
div>2. cortu lo bekpi be mi</div><div>3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect =
relations between sumti in a nice way.</div><div>I guess Lojban is just una=
ble to express this in a more concise way.</div><div>May be</div><div>4. be=
kpi je selcortu mi ?<br></div><div><br></div><div>I wish I could bind {bekp=
i} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Pierre
<br>--=20
<br>I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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