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Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 11:21:29 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / I still don't see the problem. And, while I agree with most of tsani's stance on use of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pain IS a concrete object, and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole relation doesn't mean that it has to be always like that. Consider {mi cortu lo xunre} mu'o mi'e .asiz. On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki wrote: > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote: >> >> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> >>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the following sentence >>> from Tatoeba. >>> >>> "My back hurts." >>> >>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it) >>> then we have three options. >>> >>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi >>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi >>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi >>> >>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations >>> between sumti in a nice way. >>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way. >>> May be >>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ? >>> >>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't. >>> >> >> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it first occurred >> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question as a verbose >> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce'u]}. > > > cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would work. > > stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to the issue. > Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another question. > >> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case is the same >> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you should be able to >> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but you can't >> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is nonsense.) >> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with the >> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti. >> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u} >> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formulas shorter. >> {mi bekpi cortu}. >> >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki wrote: > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote: >> >> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> >>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the following sentence >>> from Tatoeba. >>> >>> "My back hurts." >>> >>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it) >>> then we have three options. >>> >>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi >>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi >>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi >>> >>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations >>> between sumti in a nice way. >>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way. >>> May be >>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ? >>> >>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't. >>> >> >> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it first occurred >> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question as a verbose >> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce'u]}. > > > cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would work. > > stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to the issue. > Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another question. > >> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case is the same >> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you should be able to >> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but you can't >> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is nonsense.) >> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with the >> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti. >> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u} >> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formulas shorter. >> {mi bekpi cortu}. >> >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.