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Subject: Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_105_8026381.1360428608227" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_105_8026381.1360428608227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote: > > I still don't see the problem. And, while I agree with most of tsani's > stance on use > of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pain IS a > concrete object, > and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole relation > doesn't mean that > it has to be always like that. Consider > {mi cortu lo xunre} > > Well, he said he was semi-serious. Next, IMO this is not lojban but a dialect of it. Lastly, this shows how this problem could be solved. I can't say that I like such solution, it's a bit awkward but shows the idea. mu'o > mi'e .asiz. > > > On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki > > wrote: > > > > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > >> > >> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the following > sentence > >>> from Tatoeba. > >>> > >>> "My back hurts." > >>> > >>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it) > >>> then we have three options. > >>> > >>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi > >>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi > >>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi > >>> > >>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations > >>> between sumti in a nice way. > >>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way. > >>> May be > >>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ? > >>> > >>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't. > >>> > >> > >> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it first > occurred > >> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question as a > verbose > >> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce'u]}. > > > > > > cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would work. > > > > stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to the > issue. > > Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another > question. > > > >> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case is the > same > >> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you should be > able to > >> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but you can't > >> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is > nonsense.) > >> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with the > >> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti. > >> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u} > >> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formulas > shorter. > >> {mi bekpi cortu}. > >> > >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > > On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki > > wrote: > > > > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > >> > >> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the following > sentence > >>> from Tatoeba. > >>> > >>> "My back hurts." > >>> > >>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gismu for it) > >>> then we have three options. > >>> > >>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi > >>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi > >>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi > >>> > >>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflect relations > >>> between sumti in a nice way. > >>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more concise way. > >>> May be > >>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ? > >>> > >>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I can't. > >>> > >> > >> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it first > occurred > >> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question as a > verbose > >> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce'u]}. > > > > > > cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would work. > > > > stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to the > issue. > > Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another > question. > > > >> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case is the > same > >> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you should be > able to > >> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but you can't > >> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is > nonsense.) > >> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with the > >> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti. > >> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u} > >> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formulas > shorter. > >> {mi bekpi cortu}. > >> > >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_105_8026381.1360428608227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote:I still don't see the problem. And, = while I agree with most of tsani's
stance on use
of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pain IS a
concrete object,
and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole relation
doesn't mean that
it has to be always like that. Consider
{mi cortu lo xunre}

Well, he said he was semi-serious. Nex= t, IMO this is not lojban but a dialect of it. Lastly, this shows how this = problem could be solved.

I can't say that I like s= uch solution, it's a bit awkward but shows the idea.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>>
>> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.co= m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the follo= wing sentence
>>> from Tatoeba.
>>>
>>> "My back hurts."
>>>
>>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gism= u for it)
>>> then we have three options.
>>>
>>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi
>>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi
>>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi
>>>
>>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflec= t relations
>>> between sumti in a nice way.
>>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more co= ncise way.
>>> May be
>>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ?
>>>
>>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I= can't.
>>>
>>
>> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it firs= t occurred
>> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question a= s a verbose
>> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce= 'u]}.
>
>
> cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would wor= k.
>
> stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to t= he issue.
> Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another = question.
>
>> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case i= s the same
>> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you shou= ld be able to
>> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but yo= u can't
>> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} i= s nonsense.)
>> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with = the
>> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti.
>> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u}
>> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formul= as shorter.
>> {mi bekpi cortu}.
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an
> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com= .
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.
>
>

On 9 February 2013 02:32, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:17:48 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>>
>> On 8 February 2013 02:21, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.co= m> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The "problem" appeared when i tried to translate the follo= wing sentence
>>> from Tatoeba.
>>>
>>> "My back hurts."
>>>
>>> If we assume that back is {bekpi} (cuz Robin needed a gism= u for it)
>>> then we have three options.
>>>
>>> 1. mi cortu lo bekpi
>>> 2. cortu lo bekpi be mi
>>> 3. mi cortu lo bekpi be mi
>>>
>>> The third solution is verbose and therefore doesn't reflec= t relations
>>> between sumti in a nice way.
>>> I guess Lojban is just unable to express this in a more co= ncise way.
>>> May be
>>> 4. bekpi je selcortu mi ?
>>>
>>> I wish I could bind {bekpi} and {selcortu} with {du} but I= can't.
>>>
>>
>> I created a semi-serious solution to this problem when it firs= t occurred
>> to me too. I propose using a property + an indirect question a= s a verbose
>> albeit consistent system: {.i mi cortu lo ka [makau] bekpi [ce= 'u]}.
>
>
> cortu2 becomes an abstraction? well,..... then indeed it would wor= k.
>
> stevo, you might think of tsani's solution as of the solution to t= he issue.
> Whether it's compatible with the current lojban or not is another = question.
>
>> My rationale for disapproving of concrete sumti in this case i= s the same
>> as my rationale for disapproving of events in kakne2: you shou= ld be able to
>> use any concrete sumti (or event in the case of kakne2) but yo= u can't
>> because bullshit. (Indeed {mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} i= s nonsense.)
>> This extends to any case where you have a concrete sumti with = the
>> restriction that it is intrinsically tied to another sumti.
>> e.g. {mi bajra fi lo ka makau jubme ce'u}
>> Naturally, we can use tanru (and jvajvo!) to make these formul= as shorter.
>> {mi bekpi cortu}.
>>
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an
> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com= .
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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