Received: from mail-qc0-f192.google.com ([209.85.216.192]:48446) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U4Q7i-0006ty-5f; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:57 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f192.google.com with SMTP id g10sf1817865qcs.19 for ; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Yv4uT3fgmYRYqNFXWQgrwW3CqoLvv/hYpunq6iv8a1Q=; b=TN0o7DeRXYxBOBgyYZc7i7Nle5X8B9v6UV8shTHq5Xb/5767qurNSiWdeQ2ydi4/2F TTJ574yzb5sEtQR/l5RTklR95eQ8+lpv8SyK/W6YJCMu8FsXesUZYZubhKpnSR5ghlfn g/x6P8J4Fzs/CWc3GwEAHKnjhz2MHE2FPe7JmeaLJKUOhZiKtKAxd/pSOe8KBHkIGezj EX2dF9Lx+MsDNEt2MLMNdfgovqy3aTJMmBNdiTEb49Spp8EociV89oPcHayvxbxxJEH/ 1OBXcJWDak6H4xu5hFIlAjzyrtS1kNSAXBfx5u5YcixWo7TeT1DQgvSDUTkBs8mDdSdY q0hA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Yv4uT3fgmYRYqNFXWQgrwW3CqoLvv/hYpunq6iv8a1Q=; b=r4g5oxse1++YPGx1qTO485EtYq4nOdMp7nGEivSSOc4ka7ZHeVrIkjIuEynxajVO/S YbZJGMkOxKVYJgdL2fqFR8kINTvMKhqsl1WJedgKl2b98U92RI2b31dNjHueUC2a5xlr k67zQkMcIj9Ee3brzHFYSF2gq1MHE/L8N02HIqMI6Q3/a9vf64y1ve1ZzB6WwM8gSgYS kWqn2NnstisR2czCrwZStHNFzK+i3HI5RpY32phvdW00v2tR7WSu3v91fXtdIqdW8Itz +Bsae73b36JEsd2RApb1P9AlGoHe8m4kqfjqzuJ87rfXuVZb/l7tB6Kpgsx7XJhP8Tcw AXrQ== X-Received: by 10.49.128.166 with SMTP id np6mr740121qeb.31.1360476639338; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:39 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.58.238 with SMTP id u14ls1388154qeq.66.gmail; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.127.198 with SMTP id ni6mr747528qeb.23.1360476637372; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 22:10:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 22:10:36 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <16623498.1257.1325847794838.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqgl3> <11bbafb2-41c3-40a4-b053-e40c1c874171@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: The Lojban Reference Grammar in Russian language MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1040_20929481.1360476637001" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1040_20929481.1360476637001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:48:16 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:55 AM, la gleki > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Friday, January 6, 2012 3:03:14 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: >>> >>> I'm glad to inform that a very small group of enthusiasts has started= =20 >>> translating The Lojban Reference Grammar into Russian. >>> >>> If anybody is able to help with translation they can do that by signing= =20 >>> up on http://lingvoforum.net/ >>> and then signing in with that login and password and then editing=20 >>> wiki-pages of Russian translation project here >>> . >>> >>> Inform what pages you are gonna translate so that we there would be no= =20 >>> intersections. >>> >> >> >> The current situation. >> All the Wave lessons (a popular textbook on Lojban) have been translated= =20 >> to Russian. >> http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/=F7=CF=CC=CE=D9_=EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE=C1=20 >> >> online search engine is also available. >> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/ >> (the whole basic vocabulary has been translated and included) >> or you can download the dictionary from here:=20 >> https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=3D1 >> For any questions contact any moderator of http://vk.com/menli.bangusoci= al group or e-mail=20 >> gleki.is...@gmail.com . >> >> Oh, this is a Russian-related message. I have to repeat it in Russian=20 >> then. >> >> >> =F7=D3=C5 =F7=CF=CC=CE=D9 =EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE=C1 (=D0=CF=D0=D5=CC=D1=D2= =CE=D9=CA =D5=DE=C5=C2=CE=C9=CB =D1=DA=D9=CB=C1 "=EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE") =C2= =D9=CC=C9 =D0=C5=D2=C5=D7=C5=C4=C5=CE=D9 =CE=C1=20 >> =D2=D5=D3=D3=CB=C9=CA =D1=DA=D9=CB. >> http://wiki.lingvoforum.net/w/=F7=CF=CC=CE=D9_=EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE=C1=20 >> >> la gleki: > Oh, i wasnt expecting anyone but Google (so that it could index it) to read= =20 this post.=20 I see a potential problem with the following definition as given in the=20 > text. It makes "ti" look like a demonstrative adjective, which the Russia= n=20 > terms are, where it's actually more like a demonstrative pronoun. (I thin= k=20 > "ti" is just "=DC=D4=CF"). > changed. =20 > It can't modify anything. And {ti} can also be plural, which is not=20 > indicated by the Russian gloss (and shouldn't be if my gloss is used).=20 > > *ti* "=DC=D4=CF=D4, =DC=D4=C1, =DC=D4=CF" - =C2=CC=C9=DA=CB=C1=D1 =D7=C5= =DD=D8 =C9=CC=C9 =D3=CF=C2=D9=D4=C9=C5 =D0=CF=C2=CC=C9=DA=CF=D3=D4=C9, =CE= =C1 =CB=CF=D4=CF=D2=D9=CA=20 > =CD=CF=D6=C5=D4 =D5=CB=C1=DA=C1=D4=D8 =C7=CF=D7=CF=D2=D1=DD=C9=CA.=20 > > Similarly with this question and answer:=20 > > =E9=D4=C1=CB, =CB=C1=CB =D3=CB=C1=DA=C1=D4=D8 "=FC=D4=CF=D4 =C4=CF=CD =CD= =CF=CA"? > > =EF=D4=D7=C5=D4: ti zdani mi > > It could seem like "ti" is being used as a modifier of "zdani" > changed =20 > , when it's really more like "ti" ('this thing') is the subject of the=20 > verb "zdani" (=D1=D7=CC=D1=D4=D8=D3=D1 =C4=CF=CD=CF=CD (=CB=CF=C7=CF)), a= nd "mi" is the object of that=20 > verb. despite the full definition given previously (*zdani* x1 =D1=D7=CC= =D1=C5=D4=D3=D1=20 > =C4=CF=CD=CF=CD x2 (=DE=D8=C9=CD);x1 =D1=D7=CC=D1=C5=D4=D3=D1 =C4=CF=CD= =CF=CD x2 (=CB=CF=C7=CF)). A literal English translation=20 > would be "This houses me", not "This house is mine". > "This is-a-house of me" will sound extremely strange in Russian so "=CD=CF= =CA" is=20 retained. But this stylistically awkward "=FC=D4=CF =C4=CF=CD =CD=C5=CE=D1"= (This is-a-house=20 of-me) is put into the the answer (which is greyed). =20 > (I can't give the literal Russian equivalent because I don't know how to= =20 > make a verb out of the noun "=C4=CF=CD".) > Me neither. =20 > I realize talking about adjectives and verbs with subjects and objects is= =20 > not how Lojban is usually described, but a beginner may understand this w= ay=20 > more readily. I think the underlying Lojban structure needs to be=20 > emphasized more in the text.=20 > I agree. Everyone is free to edit the translation. It's a mediawiki-based= =20 website. You just need to register at lingvoforum.net. The translation might be transferred to LMW but as we haven't agreed on=20 what wiki should be used in future let's wait. =20 > stevo > > > =E4=CF=D3=D4=D5=D0=C5=CE =D4=C1=CB=D6=C5 =D3=CC=CF=D7=C1=D2=CE=D9=CA =D0= =CF=C9=D3=CB >> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/ >> =E9=CC=C9 =D6=C5 =D7=D9 =CD=CF=D6=C5=D4=C5 =D3=CB=C1=DE=C1=D4=D8 =D3=CC= =CF=D7=C1=D2=D8 =CF=D4=D3=C0=C4=C1:=20 >> https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=3D1 >> =F0=CF =CC=C0=C2=D9=CD =D7=CF=D0=D2=CF=D3=C1=CD =D3=D7=D1=D6=C9=D4=C5=D3= =D8 =D3 =CC=C0=C2=D9=CD =CD=CF=C4=C5=D2=C1=D4=CF=D2=CF=CD (=D7=C5=C4=D5=DD= =C9=CD) =C7=D2=D5=D0=D0=D9=20 >> http://vk.com/menli.bangu =C9=CC=C9 =CE=C1=D0=C9=DB=C9=D4=C5 =D0=CF =C1= =C4=D2=C5=D3=D5 gleki.is...@gmail.com >> . >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1040_20929481.1360476637001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:48:16 PM UTC+4, stevo wrote:

On= Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:55 AM, la gleki <gleki.is= ...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Friday, January 6, 2012 3:03:14 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:I'm glad to inform that a very small = group of enthusiasts has started translating The Lojban Reference Grammar i= nto Russian.

If anybody is able to help with translation they can do that= by signing up on htt= p://lingvoforum.net/
and then signing in with that login and = password and then editing wiki-pages of Russian translation project here.

Inform what pages you are gonna translate so that we th= ere would be no intersections.


The current situation.
All the Wave lessons (a pop= ular textbook on Lojban) have been translated to Russian.
http://wiki= .lingvoforum.net/w/=F7=CF=CC=CE=D9_=EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE=C1 

online search engine is also available.
(the whole b= asic vocabulary has been translated and included)
or you can down= load the dictionary from here: https://sites.google= .com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=3D1
For any questions contact any moderator of http://vk.com/menli.bangu social grou= p or e-mail gleki.is...@gmail.com.

Oh, this is a Russian-related message. I have to = repeat it in Russian then.


=F7=D3= =C5 =F7=CF=CC=CE=D9 =EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE=C1 (=D0=CF=D0=D5=CC=D1=D2=CE=D9=CA = =D5=DE=C5=C2=CE=C9=CB =D1=DA=D9=CB=C1 "=EC=CF=D6=C2=C1=CE") =C2=D9=CC=C9 = =D0=C5=D2=C5=D7=C5=C4=C5=CE=D9 =CE=C1 =D2=D5=D3=D3=CB=C9=CA =D1=DA=D9=CB.

la gleki:

Oh, i wasnt expecting anyone but Google (so tha= t it could index it) to read this post. 

I see a potential problem with the following = definition as given in the text. It makes "ti" look like a demonstrative ad= jective, which the Russian terms are, where it's actually more like a demon= strative pronoun. (I think "ti" is just "=DC=D4=CF").

changed.

 
 It can't modify anything. And {ti} can al= so be plural, which is not indicated by the Russian gloss (and shouldn't be= if my gloss is used). 

ti&n= bsp;"=DC=D4=CF=D4, =DC=D4=C1, =DC=D4=CF" – =C2=CC=C9=DA=CB=C1=D1 =D7= =C5=DD=D8 =C9=CC=C9 =D3=CF=C2=D9=D4=C9=C5 =D0=CF=C2=CC=C9=DA=CF=D3=D4=C9, = =CE=C1 =CB=CF=D4=CF=D2=D9=CA =CD=CF=D6=C5=D4 =D5=CB=C1=DA=C1=D4=D8 =C7=CF= =D7=CF=D2=D1=DD=C9=CA. 

Similarly with this question and answer: 

= =E9=D4=C1=CB, =CB=C1=CB =D3=CB=C1=DA=C1=D4=D8 “=FC=D4=CF=D4 =C4=CF=CD= =CD=CF=CA”?

= =EF=D4=D7=C5=D4: ti zdani mi

It could seem like "ti" is being used as a modifier = of "zdani"


changed
 

, when it's really more like "ti" ('= this thing') is the subject of the verb "zdani" (=D1=D7=CC=D1=D4=D8=D3=D1 =C4=CF=CD=CF=CD (=CB=CF=C7=CF)), and "mi" is the object of that verb. despite the full def= inition given previously (zdani x1= =D1=D7=CC=D1=C5=D4=D3=D1 =C4=CF=CD=CF=CD x2 (=DE=D8=C9=CD);x1 =D1=D7=CC=D1= =C5=D4=D3=D1 =C4=CF=CD=CF=CD x2 (=CB=CF=C7=CF)). A literal English translat= ion would be "This houses me", not "This house is mine".


"This is-a-house of me" will sound ext= remely strange in Russian so "=CD=CF=CA" is retained. But this stylisticall= y awkward "=FC=D4=CF =C4=CF=CD =CD=C5=CE=D1" (This is-a-house of-me) is put= into the the answer (which is greyed).

 
<= div>

(I can't give the literal Russian= equivalent because I don't know how to make a verb out of the noun "=C4=CF=CD".)


Me neither= .
 

I realize talking about adjectives and verbs with subjects and objects is = not how Lojban is usually described, but a beginner may understand this way= more readily. I think the underlying Lojban structure needs to be emphasiz= ed more in the text. 


I agree. Everyone is free to edit the translation. It's a mediawiki-= based website. You just need to register at lingvoforum.net.

=
The translation might be transferred to LMW but as we haven't ag= reed on what wiki should be used in future let's wait.

=
 

stevo


=E4=CF=D3=D4= =D5=D0=C5=CE =D4=C1=CB=D6=C5 =D3=CC=CF=D7=C1=D2=CE=D9=CA =D0=CF=C9=D3=CB
=E9=CC=C9 =D6=C5 =D7=D9 =CD=CF=D6=C5=D4=C5 =D3=CB=C1=DE=C1= =D4=D8 =D3=CC=CF=D7=C1=D2=D8 =CF=D4=D3=C0=C4=C1: ht= tps://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/sorcu-lo-cukta?pli=3D1=
=F0=CF =CC=C0=C2=D9=CD =D7=CF=D0=D2=CF=D3=C1=CD =D3=D7=D1=D6=C9=D4=C5=D3=D8= =D3 =CC=C0=C2=D9=CD =CD=CF=C4=C5=D2=C1=D4=CF=D2=CF=CD (=D7=C5=C4=D5=DD=C9= =CD) =C7=D2=D5=D0=D0=D9 http://vk.com/menli.bangu =C9=CC=C9 =CE=C1=D0=C9=DB=C9=D4=C5 =D0= =CF =C1=C4=D2=C5=D3=D5 gleki.is...@gmail.com.

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.

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=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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