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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu}
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On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:08:46 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote:
>
> On 9 February 2013 13:50, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote: 
> >> 
> >> I still don't see the problem. And, while I agree with most of tsani's 
> >> stance on use 
> >> of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pain IS a 
> >> concrete object, 
> >> and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole relation 
> >> doesn't mean that 
> >> it has to be always like that. Consider 
> >>   {mi cortu lo xunre} 
> >> 
> > 
> > Well, he said he was semi-serious. Next, IMO this is not lojban but a 
> > dialect of it. Lastly, this shows how this problem could be solved. 
> > 
>
> Again, I don't see the problem. Restricting cortu2 to involve a 
> part-of-body 
> relation would be a problem.


Of course. I didn't suggest that. The problem is that two arbitrary sumti 
from one jufra may not be equal.
E.g. there can be semi-abstractions like in the case with {mi kakne lo ka 
citka lo plise} where {kakne2} mustn't contain anything but this 
semi-abstraction where one inner sumti is automatically replicated from 
kakne1. This is something that just wasn't built into the design of Lojban. 
That's why such questions as "I don't see a problem" arise (e.g. long long 
ago I used to think that all languages must have verbs and nouns, which 
Lojban proved wrong to me). Saying that unfilled places are {zo'e} and can 
be easily derived from context makes Lojban not so intuitive for computers 
because they don't know this context. In fact it just suggests that Lojban 
is a normal natlangish conlang. Of course there are no problems perceived 
by humans in ordinary "vulgar" speech.
The problem is that Lojban is too loose in allowing what can be inside 
abstraction-sumti ({mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is still gendra 
although absolutely nalsmudra).

A fix to this problem might sound like this.

*The first unfilled place of the first brivla inside {cortu2} is 
automatically assumed to be filled with {ce'u} which refers to {cortu1}. so 
that we have {mi cortu lo stedu [be ce'u]} or {mi cortu ti} that has no 
places to be filled.*
*
*
*For other nesting brivla similar to {cortu} {ce'u} can refer to other 
non-x1 places of nesting brivla. Those places are to be specially marked in 
updated definitions of those brivla for maximum clarity for computers.*

Obviously this is 100% backward compatible with the current Lojban.

 

> The current {mi cortu lo xunre}, {mi cortu ti}, 
> {mi cortu lo se janli} wouldn't be easily expressible, just to mention the 
> first few that come up to my mind. 
>
> > I can't say that I like such solution, it's a bit awkward but shows the 
> > idea. 
> > 
>
> Non-problem, non-solution. 
>
> mu'o 
> mi'e .asiz. 
>

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------=_Part_73_4862496.1360495952768
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<br><br>On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:08:46 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 9 February 2013 13:50, la gleki &=
lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"8-6X7=
sRZZUYJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; I still don't see the problem. And, while I agree with most of=
 tsani's
<br>&gt;&gt; stance on use
<br>&gt;&gt; of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pa=
in IS a
<br>&gt;&gt; concrete object,
<br>&gt;&gt; and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole re=
lation
<br>&gt;&gt; doesn't mean that
<br>&gt;&gt; it has to be always like that. Consider
<br>&gt;&gt; &nbsp; {mi cortu lo xunre}
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Well, he said he was semi-serious. Next, IMO this is not lojban bu=
t a
<br>&gt; dialect of it. Lastly, this shows how this problem could be solved=
.
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br>Again, I don't see the problem. Restricting cortu2 to involve a part-of=
-body
<br>relation would be a problem.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course.=
 I didn't suggest that. The problem is that two arbitrary sumti from one ju=
fra may not be equal.</div><div>E.g. there can be semi-abstractions like in=
 the case with {mi kakne lo ka citka lo plise} where {kakne2} mustn't conta=
in anything but this semi-abstraction where one inner sumti is automaticall=
y replicated from kakne1. This is something that just wasn't built into the=
 design of Lojban. That's why such questions as "I don't see a problem" ari=
se (e.g. long long ago I used to think that all languages must have verbs a=
nd nouns, which Lojban proved wrong to me). Saying that unfilled places are=
 {zo'e} and can be easily derived from context makes Lojban not so intuitiv=
e for computers because they don't know this context. In fact it just sugge=
sts that Lojban is a normal natlangish conlang. Of course there are no prob=
lems perceived by humans in ordinary "vulgar" speech.</div><div>The problem=
 is that Lojban is too loose in allowing what can be inside abstraction-sum=
ti ({mi kakne lo nu do citka lo plise} is still gendra although absolutely =
nalsmudra).</div><div><br></div><div>A fix to this problem might sound like=
 this.</div><div><br></div><div><b>The first unfilled place of the first br=
ivla inside {cortu2} is automatically assumed to be filled with {ce'u} whic=
h refers to {cortu1}. so that we have {mi cortu lo stedu [be ce'u]} or {mi =
cortu ti} that has no places to be filled.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><=
div><b>For other nesting brivla similar to {cortu} {ce'u} can refer to othe=
r non-x1 places of nesting brivla. Those places are to be specially marked =
in updated definitions of those brivla for maximum clarity for computers.</=
b></div><div><br></div><div>Obviously this is 100% backward compatible with=
 the current Lojban.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"> The current {mi cortu lo xunre}, {mi cortu ti}=
,
<br>{mi cortu lo se janli} wouldn't be easily expressible, just to mention =
the
<br>first few that come up to my mind.
<br>
<br>&gt; I can't say that I like such solution, it's a bit awkward but show=
s the
<br>&gt; idea.
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br>Non-problem, non-solution.
<br>
<br>mu'o
<br>mi'e .asiz.
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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