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<0c6ecd5d-9e9b-4180-b719-c92d16a4bdfa@googlegroups.com> <710074ba-dfaa-4789-b735-37122a78b1d5@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:38:03 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] strange behaviour of {cortu} From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On 10 February 2013 08:32, la gleki wrote: > > > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:08:46 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote: >> >> On 9 February 2013 13:50, la gleki wrote: >> > >> > >> > On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+4, .asiz. wrote: >> >> >> >> I still don't see the problem. And, while I agree with most of tsani's >> >> stance on use >> >> of abstractions, I think he went too far here. The locus of pain IS a >> >> concrete object, >> >> and the fact that it is usually described with a part-whole relation >> >> doesn't mean that >> >> it has to be always like that. Consider >> >> {mi cortu lo xunre} >> >> >> > >> > Well, he said he was semi-serious. Next, IMO this is not lojban but a >> > dialect of it. Lastly, this shows how this problem could be solved. >> > >> >> Again, I don't see the problem. Restricting cortu2 to involve a >> part-of-body >> relation would be a problem. > > > Of course. I didn't suggest that. The problem is that two arbitrary sumti > from one jufra may not be equal. > E.g. there can be semi-abstractions like in the case with {mi kakne lo ka > citka lo plise} where {kakne2} mustn't contain anything but this > semi-abstraction where one inner sumti is automatically replicated from > kakne1. This is something that just wasn't built into the design of Lojban. > That's why such questions as "I don't see a problem" arise (e.g. long long > ago I used to think that all languages must have verbs and nouns, which > Lojban proved wrong to me). Saying that unfilled places are {zo'e} and can > be easily derived from context makes Lojban not so intuitive for computers > because they don't know this context. In fact it just suggests that Lojban > is a normal natlangish conlang. Of course there are no problems perceived by > humans in ordinary "vulgar" speech. If you input to a computer (1) {la .djan. cortu lo birka} (2) {.i ri birka ma}, it could infer the answer to the question from the following general principles, which you may call semantic axioms: (3) {roda rode ganai cortu gi se pagbu} (4) {ro da poi birka ku'o ro de poi danlu ganai pagbu gi birka} and some data providing (5) {la .djan. danlu} Question (2) could trigger a search for data expressing a {birka} relation, or principles having it as its consequent. Finding (4) would trigger a search for things that imply a {pagbu}. This would lead to (3) which by its turn would lead to (1). Then it would be just a case of checking that {la .djan. danlu} and the trivial {lo birka cu birka}. Of course there would be typically many side attempts leading to dead ends, but nobody said that artificial intelligence is easy and, not really having any experience in the area, my point is that the inference is possible, from very general semantic information, and with a pretty simple reasoning. > A fix to this problem might sound like this. > > The first unfilled place of the first brivla inside {cortu2} is > automatically assumed to be filled with {ce'u} which refers to {cortu1}. so > that we have {mi cortu lo stedu [be ce'u]} or {mi cortu ti} that has no > places to be filled. > I am sorry gleki, but have you really considered my examples? Do you really believe that (6) {mi cortu lo se danre} implies (7) {mi cortu lo se danre be mi}? (ta'o I keep my {ce'u}s under {ka} or {si'o}.) > For other nesting brivla similar to {cortu} {ce'u} can refer to other non-x1 > places of nesting brivla. Those places are to be specially marked in updated > definitions of those brivla for maximum clarity for computers. > > Obviously this is 100% backward compatible with the current Lojban. > Obviously not! Again, please, see the example above. mu'o mi'e .asiz. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.