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[66.94.236.191]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y44si1581921yhl.5.2013.02.15.19.19.58 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.191 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.191; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm25.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2013 03:19:57 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.123] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2013 03:19:57 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Feb 2013 03:19:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 832775.58741.bm@omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 75427 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Feb 2013 03:19:57 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: xH6pYHQVM1mu8wVR2OPFuea0zbMEww8kPWLewahEe7tLakV g0YKlJkhFDUxvZqHqsbzaXeiBiBPXYK_zIK1enTrahm7gOhIRcCMogh4_mTf OzlFgHrlIZpmkWgNGAYfR7KZzzBigJg5xHFjPk7yYjCXDSA1v3vLqt1wL0DA Lb.fkwyEXsjIwyj0mtYzMdpSuwIQ3CnEh70DsEqqXEGMTTpxlaEttjOMHuBj GkVqD31Sk2yYT6woheS03wM3a8RazQVTpaSW5F9Dsv6dHur1VqEzgxshctCr Vmo3wB.2pXnJ8St6tSBBfD3FNrqMomgAKAbt1EXEtPVtXBI6DWWRU3NT_Boa SqY5c7nddD0CoWutp_gXn_sQ1air7Z5txi5QkGkioYbFBOaDiSD.1U_KNiIX 8bfpWWngG68cXpAYZiz.0.t_sFMTBH_YLA.u62G1jPhrUsVVZmOFIE.QYKR8 MRojEvQyMHMPKSCELt4Ze4PfWTnq9jEAJCHmQVUgC9bjT3MBpIQSH7C_HnB2 vwWN3Eh5btCahvQA8rtZy4JtIB8._ Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:19:57 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,QWgsIHRoZSBzdXBlcmZlY3RpdmUgKGEgc3R1ZHBpZCB0aGluZywgYnV0IG1pbmUgb3duKSwgZ29pbmcgb24gd2l0aCB0aGUgYWN0aXZpdGllcyBvZiBhIHByb2Nlc3MgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIHBlcmZlY3Rpb24gb2YgYSBwcm9jZXNzOiBrZWVwaW5nIG9uIHJ1bm5pbmcgYWZ0ZXIgaGF2aW5nIHJ1biB0aGUgbWlsZSwga2VlcGluZyBvbiBzbGVlcGluZyBhZnRlciB0aGUgYWxhcm0gKHdoaWNoIHNob3VsZCBtYXJrIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgeW91ciAic2xlZXAgdW50aWwgdGhlIGFsYXJtIHJpbmdzIiksIGxpdmluZyBwYXMBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.133.508 References: <20130216005511.GB10126@samsa.fritz.box> Message-ID: <1360984797.53603.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:19:57 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] srana zo za'o To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <20130216005511.GB10126@samsa.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.191 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-334495122-1413806065-1360984797=:53603" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---334495122-1413806065-1360984797=:53603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, the superfective (a studpid thing, but mine own), going on with the act= ivities of a process after the perfection of a process: keeping on running = after having run the mile, keeping on sleeping after the alarm (which shoul= d mark the end of your "sleep until the alarm rings"), living past your thr= ee score years and ten (or your heirs' need the money).=A0 And so on.=A0 Th= e only two problems with the definition as you read it are 1) the end is na= tural only in context: running a mile is the end of running a mile, running= after that is keeping on running=A0 -- which wouldn't be superfective if y= ou were running two miles or a marathon, and 2) what you keep on doing is n= ot exactly what you were doing: before the end of the mile, you were runnin= g the mile, after that you are just running, not running the mile (unless y= ou a now running another mile, in which case someone might say you are keep= ing on running miles).=A0 So it is past some salient point (though just "now" won't do) defined by what you were doing before you began keeping on= e.=A0 The salient point is an explicit or implicit limit on the first proce= ss, after which the activity continues (note that the process/activity dist= inction is not very sharp here).=A0 He turned seventy but he keeps on runni= ng marathons -- he has done it for a while before seventy but seventy is su= rely an age to give that stuff up, still ... . In all the cases given, it s= eems the relevant point is more implicit than might be ideal, however, the = {za'o} tells you to look for them and understand more of the story because = of that. ________________________________ From: v4hn To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 6:55 PM Subject: [lojban] srana zo za'o =20 Hey everyone, because most of my recent contributions to the list where about UDs and le/lo, I want to talk about different things for a change. Though this is rather a detail, I stumbled across it multiple times: What's up with {za'o}? It is defined as "continuing too long after natural end of ...". Maybe I just misunderstand that definition, however, many things {ba'e} don't have a natural end and people seem to use it more as "continuing past some salient point in time" (probably often "now") or simply "continuing". Some examples I found: In {le cmalu noltru}: .i lo cuntu cu srana lo du'u mi za'o jmive gi'ikau mrobi'o In {lo selfri be la .alis. bei bu'u la selmacygu'e}: .i ku'i ry [to le ractu toi] ca na za'o se viska In {la snime blabi} .i se ri'a bo ny [to le noltruni'u toi] na za'o surla kakne ca ga lo donri = gi lo nicte How can I go on living past the natural end of me living? I suppose it's "continue to live" in the little prince (and the original supports me here = {.ui}) The other two examples translate as "does not continue" for me and I consid= er this something rather different from "does not continue past the natural end". The CLL on the other hand gives this one example for {za'o}: {le ctuca pu za'o ciksi le cmaci seldanfu le tadgri} The teacher kept on explaining the mathematics problem to the class too lon= g. The "too long" probably refers to the idea that the "natural ending point" is already exceeded. I don't see this kind of translation in the cases I ci= ted. It seems to me the restriction "after natural end" is superfluous in the de= finition of {za'o} and ignored in practice. Also, how {ba'e} would one utter "She continues sleeping" without {za'o}? {.i ko'a to'e de'a sipna}? Without the "natural end" I would just say {.i ko'a za'o sipna}, which would mean {.i ko'a sipna za'o lo cabnu}, as described in the byfy section on {za'o}. But even then, I don't see any reason to call "now" a "natural end" of her sleeping. Any opinions? v4hn --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---334495122-1413806065-1360984797=:53603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, the superfective = (a studpid thing, but mine own), going on with the activities of a process = after the perfection of a process: keeping on running after having run the = mile, keeping on sleeping after the alarm (which should mark the end of you= r "sleep until the alarm rings"), living past your three score years and te= n (or your heirs' need the money).  And so on.  The only two prob= lems with the definition as you read it are 1) the end is natural only in c= ontext: running a mile is the end of running a mile, running after that is = keeping on running  -- which wouldn't be superfective if you were runn= ing two miles or a marathon, and 2) what you keep on doing is not exactly w= hat you were doing: before the end of the mile, you were running the mile, = after that you are just running, not running the mile (unless you a now running another mile, in which case someone might say you are keeping = on running miles).  So it is past some salient point (though just "now= " won't do) defined by what you were doing before you began keeping one.&nb= sp; The salient point is an explicit or implicit limit on the first process= , after which the activity continues (note that the process/activity distin= ction is not very sharp here).  He turned seventy but he keeps on runn= ing marathons -- he has done it for a while before seventy but seventy is s= urely an age to give that stuff up, still ... . In all the cases given, it = seems the relevant point is more implicit than might be ideal, however, the= {za'o} tells you to look for them and understand more of the story because= of that.



From: v4hn <= ;me@v4hn.de>
To: lo= jban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 6:55 PM
Subject: [lojban] srana zo za'o

Hey everyone,

because most of my recent contributions to the listwhere about UDs and le/lo, I want to talk about
different things for a = change. Though this is rather
a detail, I stumbled across it multiple ti= mes:

What's up with {za'o}?
It is defined as "continuing too long= after natural end of ...".
Maybe I just misunderstand that definition, = however,
many things {ba'e} don't have a natural end and people seem
= to use it more as "continuing past some salient point in time"
(probably= often "now") or simply "continuing".

Some examples I found:

= In {le cmalu noltru}:
.i lo cuntu cu srana lo du'u mi za'o jmive gi'ikau= mrobi'o

In {lo selfri be la .alis. bei bu'u la selmacygu'e}:
.i = ku'i ry [to le ractu toi] ca na za'o se viska

In {la snime blabi}.i se ri'a bo ny [to le noltruni'u toi] na za'o surla kakne ca ga lo donri= gi lo nicte

How can I go on living past the natural end of me living? I suppose it's
"continue to live" in the little prince (and = the original supports me here {.ui})

The other two examples translat= e as "does not continue" for me and I consider this
something rather dif= ferent from "does not continue past the natural end".

The CLL on the= other hand gives this one example for {za'o}:

{le ctuca pu za'o cik= si le cmaci seldanfu le tadgri}
The teacher kept on explaining the mathe= matics problem to the class too long.

The "too long" probably refers= to the idea that the "natural ending point"
is already exceeded. I don'= t see this kind of translation in the cases I cited.

It seems to me = the restriction "after natural end" is superfluous in the definition
of = {za'o} and ignored in practice.

Also, how {ba'e} would one utter "Sh= e continues sleeping" without {za'o}?
{.i ko'a to'e de'a sipna}? Without= the "natural end" I would just say
{.i ko'a za'o sipna}, which would mean {.i ko'a sipna za'o lo cabnu},
as described in the byfy sect= ion on {za'o}. But even then, I don't see
any reason to call "now" a "na= tural end" of her sleeping.

Any opinions?


v4hn

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