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From: v4= hn <me@v4hn.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent:<= /span> Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] srana zo za'o

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 07:19:57PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:
> Ah= , the superfective (a stupid thing, but mine own), going on
> with th= e activities of a process after the perfection of a process:
> keepin= g on running after having run the mile, keeping on sleeping
> after t= he alarm (which should mark the end of your "sleep until
> the alarm = rings"), living past your three score years and ten
> (or your heirs'= need the money). And so on.

> The only two problems with t= he definition as you read it are
> 1) the end is natural only in cont= ext: running a mile is the end
> of running a mile, running after tha= t is keeping on running -- which
> wouldn't be superfective if = you were running two miles or a marathon,

How would you utter "ko'a = keeps on running after reaching one mile"
in your two miles example?
=
It will depend. If the aim was to run two miles and the expectation was that he would do it, then {ca'o} is probably appropriate b= ut not {za'o}, since he is still running the two miles. But if you ex= pected him to fall out after a mile, {za'o} might be appropriate, since you= r expectation provides a (not quite) natural stopping point. You can = play a lot with nuance here.

Also how would you translate the {na z= a'o surla kakne} sentence in snow white
without za'o? ("could not contin= ue to relax")

This seems weird to me: Therefore it is not the = case that the prince kept on being able to relax day and night. Presu= mably, he could relax if the crisis moment were past, so keeping relaxing s= eems to mean he was doing it earlier, which doesn't seem right. So, n= ot being able to relax is appropriate before the crisis point and thus not = a matter of {za'o} before that point. So, I think the {za'o} is proba= bly a mistake, but the scope problems still bother me a bit.

> and 2) what you keep on doing is not exactly what you wer= e doing:
> before the end of the mile, you were running the mile, aft= er that
> you are just running, not running the mile (unless you a no= w running
> another mile, in which case someone might say you are kee= ping on running
> miles). So it is past some salient point (tho= ugh just "now" won't do)

This seems to be the case in the snow white= sentence and probably also
for the little prince.

> defined by what you were doing before you began keepin= g on.
> The salient point is an explicit or implicit limit on the fir= st process,
> after which the activity continues (note that the proce= ss/activity
> distinction is not very sharp here). He turned seventy but he keeps on
> running marathons -- he has done it= for a while before seventy but seventy
> is surely an age to give th= at stuff up, still ... . In all the cases given,
> it seems the relev= ant point is more implicit than might be ideal,
> however, the {za'o}= tells you to look for them and understand more
> of the story becaus= e of that.

I just think this ending point is something that wasn't t= here before the
translation and I wonder how to translate these sentence= s without
introducing this point.

Usually, probably {ca'o}or noth= ing.

v4hn

> ________________________________
> = From: v4hn <me@v4hn.de>
> To: lojban@googlegroups.com
>= ; Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 6:55 PM
> Subject: [lojban] srana zo za'o
>
> [...]
>
> Some examples I found:
>
> In {le cmal= u noltru}:
> .i lo cuntu cu srana lo du'u mi za'o jmive gi'ikau mrobi= 'o
>
> In {lo selfri be la .alis. bei bu'u la selmacygu'e}:> .i ku'i ry [to le ractu toi] ca na za'o se viska
>
> In = {la snime blabi}
> .i se ri'a bo ny [to le noltruni'u toi] na za'o su= rla kakne ca ga lo donri gi lo nicte

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