Received: from mail-qc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.216.187]:56137) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1U9e8B-0004ek-Jv; Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:09:02 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id a6sf1040636qch.14 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:08:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Bkt7WnNm7YhS5CUiKVsjjmdIBaq3lBE82E/VKeFFAwA=; b=WZi4VRbVXUpjhEjjRBVvpwk42m9W8Q/H+cMbY9X4ts37gQmL/9y4zD0tnWRep5Y40P 4K81GcsVLGa/KM5TKtc+LKH6Bpc39CRe5m/21INohZIkbGGBPg1DSCSGEhdu2mXDPvrZ LCfFZJfoWnpLTajkKNPRhGOatAXTdDhZxUp3Hf1gOcoKa0HzaOQq4EgvhK298Qz41OIz Pm2D1uwcfbOtP9Umqo7EzwnGTcSAOs5m1xEVn2AB0ngCCwg+14tENgV4GFH3FqShCwiA JBuh6UBAhxphrhTku3sgY0zhrrFzftaA+Qp3mxygio7epJ48FlI5K2n408BANrxVSpNo SbHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Bkt7WnNm7YhS5CUiKVsjjmdIBaq3lBE82E/VKeFFAwA=; b=wuGdmuNXSe9k8WRmYGIPRDElINcXu6dQxiku41f7QWVXWEcomtawkal2BXrb/gqdcq mcmioB3/8Fv388+mY1QLdRHtkgv9s14k0nKYSFM5fmmBVnZgOflDzT9DGjU5yfm7u0gP 3i+BeAjZVs7wP8ceLhvNSb+zR5f3T7W8435Oh64p6ZdQwwfsa+m5zwqiamo7bVo1/nrS chefrMtvQ186UsfBz/GFT3j/QrVHu8GVWsEcvUkFXg/ZBe4lmZ0AgYajsloWSbasqjBc Wu1E2VZ3EhM9dGq8sjNTaqLPs1sMB8XoYmNJvnhR1foJXmm9CpXw17mylM1MjWjQug0j nZhw== X-Received: by 10.49.116.139 with SMTP id jw11mr655417qeb.12.1361722124871; Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:08:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.2.225 with SMTP id 1ls853834qex.77.gmail; Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:08:43 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.116.135 with SMTP id jw7mr609811qeb.10.1361722123575; Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:08:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <0b0258fd-888c-478d-8e91-9fd3994870de@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <6e711851-b9aa-4560-b416-7f56924a0480@googlegroups.com> References: <502A81EB.2000005@gmail.com> <502A9A2C.20606@gmail.com> <55e70b7d-e835-423b-8557-8ae88b88a4e2@googlegroups.com> <504112FA.4010001@gmail.com> <5041FE65.9030902@gmx.de> <5f11ab31-5816-474c-84cb-c0b50e6aa3aa@googlegroups.com> <74daaf70-4652-4b75-85fa-dc838f155234@googlegroups.com> <6e711851-b9aa-4560-b416-7f56924a0480@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_63_17898230.1361722123066" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_63_17898230.1361722123066 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:29:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: > > Sorry for formatting problems. Reposting. > > *This is an abridged extract from Ithkuil grammar.* > *Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's affixes and it's often=20 > impossible to drop out words that are known from context anyway. Therefor= e,=20 > the translations to lojban are lengthy. It's only Ithkuil that causes thi= s. > * > *Again note that you might wanna replace {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I= =20 > don't care.* > * > * > > > 5.2.1=20 > FAC > The Factual > The FACTUAL mood signifies that the factuality of the speaker=92s stateme= nt=20 > is certain and that there either is no underlying presupposition to the= =20 > statement, or if there is, its factuality is also certain or has no beari= ng=20 > on the factuality of the statement. Examples: > > His kids are ill. [i.e., it is known he has kids and it is known they are= =20 > ill] =20 > {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} > > > 5.2.2=20 > SUB > The Subjunctive > The SUBJUNCTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or=20 > implicit presupposition underlying the statement is certain, but the=20 > factuality of the speaker=92s statement itself is questionable or uncerta= in,=20 > the specific nuance of factuality intended being subject to the particula= r=20 > Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with=20 > English =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction= that an=20 > explicit or implicit (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples: > > Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e., it is known that he has kids but it is not= =20 > known whether they are ill] > {lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} > > 5.2.3=20 > ASM > The Assumptive > The ASSUMPTIVE mood functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the= =20 > factuality of an underlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conve= ys=20 > an act, state, or event whose factuality is dependent on whether somethin= g=20 > else is factual, thus corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe= =92=20 > and =91will=92 (where =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not futur= e tense).=20 > As with all moods, the specific translation is subject to the particular= =20 > Bias and Validation associated with the verb. Examples: > > His kids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they are ill. [i.e., it is unknow= n=20 > whether he has kids, but if he does, they are certainly ill.] > {lo sei cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} > > > 5.2.4=20 > SPC > The Speculative > The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of both the=20 > presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its translation into= =20 > English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes corresponding to= =20 > =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times corresponding t= o the=20 > auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those above: > > Maybe his kids are ill [i.e., it is unknown if he has kids but if he does= ,=20 > they may be ill]. > {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} > > 5.2.5=20 > COU > The Counterfactive > The COUNTERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying= =20 > presupposition is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statemen= t=20 > would otherwise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction = of=20 > auxiliary =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactu= ality=20 > (i.e., what would have been if a false presupposition had been true).=20 > Again, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and=20 > Validation associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those= =20 > above. > > His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he had kids they would= =20 > be ill, but he doesn=92t]. > {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci} > > 5.2.6=20 > HYP > The Hypothetical > The HYPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 > presupposition is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statemen= t=20 > itself is uncertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of= =20 > auxiliary =91might have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality = (i.e.,=20 > what might have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the= =20 > specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation=20 > associated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above. > > His kids might=92ve been ill [if he had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we=92l= l never=20 > know]. > {lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumki} > > 5.2.7=20 > IPL > The Implicative > The IMPLICATIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying=20 > presupposition determines the factuality of the statement and that the=20 > relationship between the two need not necessarily be a direct=20 > cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of events from which the= =20 > speaker infers the statement from the underlying presupposition. In=20 > grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemic conditional.= =94=20 > Examples are shown below. > > His kids are (must be) ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as= =20 > his staying home from work]. > {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa} > {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno} > > 5.2.8=20 > ASC > The Ascriptive > The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IMPLICATIVE immediately= =20 > above, except that the factuality of the inference derived from the=20 > underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples: > > His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his=20 > staying home from work]. > {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa sei cumki} > {lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki} > *Important additions. *During recent discussions in chat the following=20 issues have been raised by selpa'i, tsani, latro'a. 1. da'i !=3D su'omu'ei, even semantically. da'i [mi ka'e snada] - Non-factual/hypothetical: I could succeed, it is=20 possible that I succeed da'i [ca'a snada] - Non-factual/hypothetical: I actually succeed da'i nai [ka'e snada] - Factual: I could succeed da'i nai [ca'a snada] - Factual: I do actually succeed So this {da'i} it actually expands JCB's scheme. 2. {ca'a=3Dfi'o jai fatci} (as jvs states) is wrong. ca'a is about events. fatci is du'u-like. So may be {ca'a=3Dfi'o fasnu} but= =20 then there is a clash with {fau=3Dfi'o fasnu}. Do you know of any other=20 suitable brivla? If not it's still not a problem. Many cmavo have no=20 corresponding brivla counterparts (NU and ZAhO are another examples of such= =20 situation). =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_63_17898230.1361722123066 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday, December 30, 2012 5:29:02 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:
Sorry for formatting problems.= Reposting.

This is an abridged extract from It= hkuil grammar.
Note that Ithkuil is very precise in it's a= ffixes and it's often impossible to drop out words that are known from cont= ext anyway. Therefore, the translations to lojban are lengthy. It's only It= hkuil that causes this.
Again note that you might wanna re= place {sei} with {xoi} or {fi'o se}. I don't care.



5.2.1
FAC
The Factual
The FACTUAL mood= signifies that the factuality of the speaker=92s statement is certain and = that there either is no underlying presupposition to the statement, or if t= here is, its factuality is also certain or has no bearing on the factuality= of the statement. Examples:

His kids are ill. [i.= e., it is known he has kids and it is known they are ill]     &nb= sp;    
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


5.2.2
SUB
The Subjunctive
The SUBJUNCTIVE= mood indicates that the factuality of an explicit or implicit presuppositi= on underlying the statement is certain, but the factuality of the speaker= =92s statement itself is questionable or uncertain, the specific nuance of = factuality intended being subject to the particular Bias and Validation ass= ociated with the verb. Corresponds roughly with English =91may,=92 =91maybe= =92 or =91might,=92 with the added distinction that an explicit or implicit= (i.e., underlying) presupposition is true. Examples:

<= div>Maybe his kids are ill. [i.e., it is known that he has kids but it is n= ot known whether they are ill]
{lo sei fatci panzi be do ku bilma= sei cumki}

5.2.3 =
ASM
The Assumptive
The ASSUMPTIVE moo= d functions identically to the FACTUAL except that the factuality of an und= erlying presupposition is unknown. It therefore conveys an act, state, or e= vent whose factuality is dependent on whether something else is factual, th= us corresponding to certain usages of English =91maybe=92 and =91will=92 (w= here =91will=92 primarily conveys possibility, not future tense). As with a= ll moods, the specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Va= lidation associated with the verb. Examples:

His k= ids=92ll be ill OR If he has kids, they are ill. [i.e., it is unknown wheth= er he has kids, but if he does, they are certainly ill.]
{lo sei = cumki panzi be do ku bilma sei fatci}


5.2.4
SPC
Th= e Speculative
The SPECULATIVE mood indicates that the factuality = of both the presupposition and the statement itself are unknown. Its transl= ation into English is dependent on the specific context, sometimes correspo= nding to =91may,=92 =91maybe=92 or =91might,=92 and at other times correspo= nding to the auxiliary =91would.=92 Compare the examples below to those abo= ve:

Maybe his kids are ill [i.e., it is unknown if= he has kids but if he does, they may be ill].
{lo panzi be do ku= bilma sei cumki}

5.2.5
COU
The Counterfactive
The COUN= TERFACTIVE mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying presupposit= ion is false or unreal but that the factuality of the statement would other= wise be true. It thus corresponds to the English construction of auxiliary = =91would=92 or =91would have=92 in its use to show counterfactuality (i.e.,= what would have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the = specific translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation assoc= iated with the verb. Compare the examples below to those above.
<= br>
His kids would be (would have been) ill [i.e., if he had kids= they would be ill, but he doesn=92t].
{lo sei na fatci panzi be = do ku bilma sei fatci}

5.2.6
HYP
The Hypothetical
The H= YPOTHETICAL mood indicates that the factuality of the underlying presupposi= tion is false or unreal and that the factuality of the statement itself is = uncertain. It thus corresponds to the English construction of auxiliary =91= might have=92 in its use to show possible counterfactuality (i.e., what mig= ht have been if a false presupposition had been true). Again, the specific = translation is subject to the particular Bias and Validation associated wit= h the verb. Compare the examples below to those above.

=
His kids might=92ve been ill [if he had kids, but he doesn=92t, so we= =92ll never know].
{lo sei na fatci panzi be do ku bilma sei cumk= i}

5.2.7
IPL
The Implicative
The IMPLICATIVE mood indic= ates that the factuality of the underlying presupposition determines the fa= ctuality of the statement and that the relationship between the two need no= t necessarily be a direct cause-and-effect, but merely an indirect chain of= events from which the speaker infers the statement from the underlying pre= supposition. In grammatical analysis, this is referred to as an =93epistemi= c conditional.=94 Examples are shown below.

His ki= ds are (must be) ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his stayi= ng home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa}
<= div>{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno}

5.2.= 8
ASC
The Ascri= ptive
The ASCRIPTIVE mood functions identically to the IMPLICATIV= E immediately above, except that the factuality of the inference derived fr= om the underlying presupposition is uncertain. Examples:

His kids may be ill [i.e., as implied by some other fact such as his= staying home from work].
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se sinxa s= ei cumki}
{lo panzi be do ku bilma sei se ve djuno sei cumki}


Important additions. <= /b>During recent discussions in chat the following issues have been raised = by selpa'i, tsani, latro'a.

1. da'i !=3D su'om= u'ei, even semantically.

da'i [mi ka'e snada] - No= n-factual/hypothetical: I could succeed, it is possible that I succeed
da'i [ca'a snada] - Non-factual/hypothetical: I actually succeed
da'i nai [ka'e snada] - Factual: I could succeed
da'i nai [= ca'a snada] - Factual: I do actually succeed

So th= is {da'i} it actually expands JCB's scheme.

2. {ca= 'a=3Dfi'o jai fatci} (as jvs states) is wrong.
ca'a is about even= ts. fatci is du'u-like. So may be {ca'a=3Dfi'o fasnu} but then there is a c= lash with {fau=3Dfi'o fasnu}. Do you know of any other suitable brivla? If = not it's still not a problem. Many cmavo have no corresponding brivla count= erparts (NU and ZAhO are another examples of such situation).
&nb= sp;

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