Received: from mail-ye0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:38865)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDKP34U3RIHBB4WDV2EQKGQETENLE6Y@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1UA226-0003M2-8k; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:40:24 -0800
Received: by mail-ye0-f189.google.com with SMTP id q11sf1576619yen.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:40:03 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
         :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=9HJsy5HrJiQAeaDW7GaeGk444G6gbH4/eumWeK8d4Yw=;
        b=WuVbDhtQbxnOlWtZKkcpQitzt4C9hvfcvJXOvHAFkNMW+shna89b7zBljm4ep22sBf
         5m/e+sIsfvXBA6yXDRD90/4boM3rEAbFLflxNPdE8tDdlxKBerhw6ZrOjOkrbdUkCdm4
         RDeEIDcahB+uDniixxHeBIQAfWPv7XWpRPKks+mnlEQ2Z9klxnJltSjtP6RNwJXA+Nxs
         IvJopoVukvejiopL0iDdGe4XfwwMA4j1OiYgvdsgseJu3+PLiscvqF+5IPKP1X0CCk0F
         WTWXx9MJsUIN8hG50IAHPndNWxGkIihpBA6J1BnBivEQliZYTryb0k6lUnlOuNpuONhY
         UE5Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id
         :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id
         :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=9HJsy5HrJiQAeaDW7GaeGk444G6gbH4/eumWeK8d4Yw=;
        b=Kr4sPefiSYp+n1LFzi/4jbVEAhQ1tHRs7T6VobftWZDpps2K+ZQQU3T5YTeuFy/I64
         dw3ot1Xn8sQxTPIB+KfDNDpkwx6G9NOgFj4GX+IEnngg3QCQXrNCeB2iV0H7r4ti3T8d
         /mCVRILcPnaRXuWEQc1HVy8RyICrDGUEI0NIgavfRCSXRAI1zXeU/bhH6ZTv+/SDiH7z
         fQDoKNgpgA9NKqU7sjrh4K1b9C/VqejmqBp6rJqtr9/2VrF9AMOhtd5+27edgvOoBk62
         5bDlCquvwGmWwQB1oF1f4+vJgBiAfVVtQbwi4bfo6vglfXBqqO/zPAD6u+fFLDafJ7hm
         z9GA==
X-Received: by 10.50.51.129 with SMTP id k1mr1133761igo.4.1361814003487;
        Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:40:03 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.140.102 with SMTP id rf6ls839641igb.10.canary; Mon, 25 Feb
 2013 09:40:02 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.50.157.138 with SMTP id wm10mr1123804igb.5.1361814002360;
        Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:40:02 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:40:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Chevalier <chevalieradam2@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <61c5697f-b690-4cb6-941f-3f5f78bdf621@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <51281489.1060706@lojban.org>
References: <8c3e2925-e91a-4fe2-bcb0-bfa7504b4aaf@googlegroups.com> <bc9ec348-46d9-4319-aed2-48afdbf6bb4c@googlegroups.com>
 <51281489.1060706@lojban.org>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Towards Lojban for Beginners version 2.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: chevalieradam2@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_623_8240512.1361814001396"
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_623_8240512.1361814001396
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM UTC-6, lojbab wrote:
>
> Adam Chevalier wrote: 
> > I had considered making my own version of L4B to take care of some 
> > things that, personally, put me off. 
> > There were a couple of Excercises that were "gotchas" and you don't want 
> > those in learning material for beginners 
> > (Mistranslating taipei under the auspices of "a b sounds like a p in the 
> > local orthography" is a terrible excuse and it made it sound like Robin 
> > was showing off) 
>
>  > Of course, by reading this board for several months I know it wasn't 
>  > intentional. 
>
>
> Actually, LFB was written by Nick Nicolas and Robin Turner, and the 
> example may have been used intentionally with international students 
> (who probably know English well enough to use LFB) in mind, rather than 
> to "show off".  The point is that the English pronunciation of foreign 
> names is often NOT a legitimate basis for Lojbanizing that name.  You 
> want the native/local pronunciation if possible. 
>
>
That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojbanized name, isn't how its pronounced 
locally or in English.
If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, they 
should have used a proper example.
 

> > Some other recommendations: 
> > 
> > 1) Try not to emphasize the concept of malglico so much. 
>
> Absolutely, one should do so.  Lojban is NOT encoded English, and if one 
> gets lazy, one will not be understood  (or will be intentionally 
> misunderstood by some people who are literal-minded and don't like 
> malglico). 
>
>
I don't remember stating that Lojban was encoded English, or even implying 
it.
But the seeming emphasis on malglico can come across as insulting, 
especially with gotchas like ninmu.
 

> > You /have/ to 
> > explain lojban in English terms in order to teach it to an English 
> > audience, so translating ninmu to x1 is a woman and scolding the learner 
> > for assuming it means an adult isn't right (by the way, we have a word 
> > for ninmu, its called female). 
>
> No. fetsi is the word for female, but is not limited to human(oid)s. 
> ninmu is a female human(oid) being, not necessarily adult. nixli is 
> expressly a girl (immature ninmu).  The definition of ninmu in the gismu 
> list specifically says that it is not necessarily an adult, so a learner 
> who assumes contrary to that definition probably deserves "scolding" 
> (though preferably in a gentle, constructive tone). 
>
>
It doesn't matter whats in the gismu list, we are talking about LFB.
LFB specifically translates it as x1 is a woman. If you are going to 
translate it to English *improperly* you cannot scold them for 
misunderstanding.
The proper translation for ninmu, based on those gismu you just gave me, is 
x1 is a female humanoid.
 

> > 2) Find ways to explain the concepts without resorting to "If you're a 
> > Mathematician, computer programmer, or a logician, its like these 
> things." 
>
> For some things derived from formal systems, like lambda calculus, I 
> suspect that it is difficult to manage this, but good luck. 
>
>
I'm not talking about lambda calculus, i'm talking about predicate logic.
Saying "For programmers, its like a parameter." And then just drop it for 
everyone else.
That is all I'm getting at. I'd like to see Lojban expand beyond hobbyists 
and people in Math related fields.
 

> > 3) Concepts and words related to language studies are confusing, please 
> > give some kind of definition for these concepts. 
>
> Technical terminology will often be opaque to someone not trained in the 
> relevant field.  I was confused about grammar terms for years including 
> the first couple of years AFTER I started separating Lojban from TLI 
> Loglan.  And even worse, sometimes technical terms have different 
> meanings in colloquial English (e.g. the classic misuse of "theory" by 
> creationists).  The latter is why I went to using the Lojban words 
> untranslated.  There really is no English translation of tanru that does 
> the concept justice. 
>
>
I'm not talking about gismu, and tanru, and jbo'ivla. I'm talking about 
meta-linguistic terms.
Words *about* language that are thrown around that beginners are not likely 
to understand.
 

> >     Anyway, what do you think, should we start updating it to reflect 
> >     the latest improvements to the grammar and the way lojban should be 
> >     taught? 
>
> The only approved change to the grammar is xorlo. 
>
> And there is no agreement on how Lojban "should be" taught. 
>
> I happen to like the way that Russian-written textbooks teach Russian, 
> but it is considerably different from how American-written textbooks do 
> so.  Each is tailored to a certain style of teaching and a certain 
> audience.  "better" requires that you fill in ALL the places of xamgu, 
> including the standard.  "correct" (drani), is even tougher; it also has 
> property and situation places besides the standard. 
>
> If someone wants to write a new intro textbook that embodies their own 
> ideas for teaching the language, then go ahead and do so.  But write it 
> anew rather than "updating" what doesn't need an "update", and call it 
> something different.  Unlike CLL, which is part of the formal language 
> definition, beginning textbooks need not all be written to the same 
> standard. 
>
> lojbab 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



------=_Part_623_8240512.1361814001396
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM UTC-6, lojbab wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Adam Chevalier wrote:
<br>&gt; I had considered making my own version of L4B to take care of some
<br>&gt; things that, personally, put me off.
<br>&gt; There were a couple of Excercises that were "gotchas" and you don'=
t want
<br>&gt; those in learning material for beginners
<br>&gt; (Mistranslating taipei under the auspices of "a b sounds like a p =
in the
<br>&gt; local orthography" is a terrible excuse and it made it sound like =
Robin
<br>&gt; was showing off)
<br>
<br>&nbsp;&gt; Of course, by reading this board for several months I know i=
t wasn't
<br>&nbsp;&gt; intentional.
<br>
<br>
<br>Actually, LFB was written by Nick Nicolas and Robin Turner, and the=20
<br>example may have been used intentionally with international students=20
<br>(who probably know English well enough to use LFB) in mind, rather than=
=20
<br>to "show off". &nbsp;The point is that the English pronunciation of for=
eign=20
<br>names is often NOT a legitimate basis for Lojbanizing that name. &nbsp;=
You=20
<br>want the native/local pronunciation if possible.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojb=
anized name, isn't how its pronounced locally or in English.</div><div>If t=
here intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, they should ha=
ve used a proper example.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left: 1ex;">&gt; Some other recommendations:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; 1) Try not to emphasize the concept of malglico so much.
<br>
<br>Absolutely, one should do so. &nbsp;Lojban is NOT encoded English, and =
if one=20
<br>gets lazy, one will not be understood &nbsp;(or will be intentionally=
=20
<br>misunderstood by some people who are literal-minded and don't like=20
<br>malglico).
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't remember stating that Lojban w=
as encoded English, or even implying it.</div><div>But the seeming emphasis=
 on malglico can come across as insulting, especially with gotchas like nin=
mu.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt;=
 You /have/ to
<br>&gt; explain lojban in English terms in order to teach it to an English
<br>&gt; audience, so translating ninmu to x1 is a woman and scolding the l=
earner
<br>&gt; for assuming it means an adult isn't right (by the way, we have a =
word
<br>&gt; for ninmu, its called female).
<br>
<br>No. fetsi is the word for female, but is not limited to human(oid)s.=20
<br>ninmu is a female human(oid) being, not necessarily adult. nixli is=20
<br>expressly a girl (immature ninmu). &nbsp;The definition of ninmu in the=
 gismu=20
<br>list specifically says that it is not necessarily an adult, so a learne=
r=20
<br>who assumes contrary to that definition probably deserves "scolding"=20
<br>(though preferably in a gentle, constructive tone).
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It doesn't matter whats in the gismu l=
ist, we are talking about LFB.</div><div>LFB specifically translates it as =
x1 is a woman. If you are going to translate it to English <i>improperly</i=
>&nbsp;you cannot scold them for misunderstanding.</div><div>The proper tra=
nslation for ninmu, based on those gismu you just gave me, is x1 is a femal=
e humanoid.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;">&gt; 2) Find ways to explain the concepts without resorting to "If yo=
u're a
<br>&gt; Mathematician, computer programmer, or a logician, its like these =
things."
<br>
<br>For some things derived from formal systems, like lambda calculus, I=20
<br>suspect that it is difficult to manage this, but good luck.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not talking about lambda calculus,=
 i'm talking about predicate logic.</div><div>Saying "For programmers, its =
like a parameter." And then just drop it for everyone else.</div><div>That =
is all I'm getting at. I'd like to see Lojban expand beyond hobbyists and p=
eople in Math related fields.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; 3) Concepts and words related to language studie=
s are confusing, please
<br>&gt; give some kind of definition for these concepts.
<br>
<br>Technical terminology will often be opaque to someone not trained in th=
e=20
<br>relevant field. &nbsp;I was confused about grammar terms for years incl=
uding=20
<br>the first couple of years AFTER I started separating Lojban from TLI=20
<br>Loglan. &nbsp;And even worse, sometimes technical terms have different=
=20
<br>meanings in colloquial English (e.g. the classic misuse of "theory" by=
=20
<br>creationists). &nbsp;The latter is why I went to using the Lojban words=
=20
<br>untranslated. &nbsp;There really is no English translation of tanru tha=
t does=20
<br>the concept justice.
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not talking about gismu, and tanru=
, and jbo'ivla. I'm talking about meta-linguistic terms.</div><div>Words <i=
>about</i>&nbsp;language that are thrown around that beginners are not like=
ly to understand.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft: 1ex;">&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Anyway, what do you think, should we start upd=
ating it to reflect
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; the latest improvements to the grammar and the way l=
ojban should be
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; taught?
<br>
<br>The only approved change to the grammar is xorlo.
<br>
<br>And there is no agreement on how Lojban "should be" taught.
<br>
<br>I happen to like the way that Russian-written textbooks teach Russian,=
=20
<br>but it is considerably different from how American-written textbooks do=
=20
<br>so. &nbsp;Each is tailored to a certain style of teaching and a certain=
=20
<br>audience. &nbsp;"better" requires that you fill in ALL the places of xa=
mgu,=20
<br>including the standard. &nbsp;"correct" (drani), is even tougher; it al=
so has=20
<br>property and situation places besides the standard.
<br>
<br>If someone wants to write a new intro textbook that embodies their own=
=20
<br>ideas for teaching the language, then go ahead and do so. &nbsp;But wri=
te it=20
<br>anew rather than "updating" what doesn't need an "update", and call it=
=20
<br>something different. &nbsp;Unlike CLL, which is part of the formal lang=
uage=20
<br>definition, beginning textbooks need not all be written to the same=20
<br>standard.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

------=_Part_623_8240512.1361814001396--