Received: from mail-ye0-f192.google.com ([209.85.213.192]:57152) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UAEBj-0006Z8-9M; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:39:08 -0800 Received: by mail-ye0-f192.google.com with SMTP id m3sf1298237yen.29 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:38:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M9asiX+VXwvw8emjAgUy7C4S1be1SNQwQua5mMgaUao=; b=os3n40ICHi5kmVvwJ2+iWDgbUhKqKFz5VgvBKnJp3MlTRU3RbaLkQC+JSHwkX/UtI1 3Ze+aFNe3iUNKvMYPZ/3smtxrhcRcMvysSmjrKcD5WouUJiXvUUKEEJPakc7Ptyx/cwU fqyzK1Xk+21vI3HOQR4XwIjJxuvf8t1BnOHgvOgbyBWQvuInA8yC7YfCNBSA+pEqGHDA QOO75Z3uhp9RHCyChmniusIZM9R79eFFBanQfDNCsKjCmX8BQ6UNigLbeEVj6/IXKyHI sC4alQs3wSUd0049guqRxLdm+EbYnYMW7Pz/ewsa8rHPXbX/3TKtzva0kssDUZszuCYc 4HjQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M9asiX+VXwvw8emjAgUy7C4S1be1SNQwQua5mMgaUao=; b=u2dCYT8AukqOSmmLrCXp1A/AkQ2CvsdVOsW2ON8x9JDO9eWHJ7+Yvdl3lPUa0m9o3t xkiK/TTr3FdSUsEO+/yhC4EETLbcWgfTz4aQ68MkyZ/0gAc7FLD5c1B1hjJroZ7AejdD hXIpMUndPGin2OO0U8ez8nl0mYOWQBJk9jUOn3T1QW90Pnv3KasTrzP2OPwnKj/08JrI ZpN2ZnPVtN+k9J26bkLrUtZtIMxEFv4ZZFIAOF1k3YAp8HcsmMog9o2Q9rxGbmNiiVhC 2q3VbotdSpAYxlpCZrnjHhEaMIQQnVI1e9DhHYr9Q5RttkKIphwIexIudISqE2wN2uwk VZHQ== X-Received: by 10.49.15.100 with SMTP id w4mr1230257qec.26.1361860727869; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.0.67 with SMTP id 3ls1388122qec.81.gmail; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:38:46 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.116.139 with SMTP id jw11mr1284871qeb.12.1361860726449; Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:38:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:38:46 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <71bee35e-9c57-4fe7-934a-6d99d60d51e0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4130668.pv6tp9R7D5@caracal> References: <8c3e2925-e91a-4fe2-bcb0-bfa7504b4aaf@googlegroups.com> <51281489.1060706@lojban.org> <61c5697f-b690-4cb6-941f-3f5f78bdf621@googlegroups.com> <4130668.pv6tp9R7D5@caracal> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Towards Lojban for Beginners version 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1653_20036793.1361860726137" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1653_20036793.1361860726137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 5:39:29 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Monday, February 25, 2013 09:40:01 Adam Chevalier wrote:=20 > > That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojbanized name, isn't how its=20 > pronounced=20 > > locally or in English.=20 > > If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, they= =20 > > should have used a proper example.=20 > > There are two things going on with that name:=20 > 1. Mandarin distinguishes aspirated and unaspirated stops; Lojban=20 > distinguishes voiceless and voiced stops. To preserve the Mandarin=20 > distinction, we should map the unaspirated /p/ to , as Pinyin does.=20 > 2. Being a proper name, it should end in a consonant in Lojban. In=20 > Chinese,=20 > this consonant should come from Middle Chinese, if there was any, as the= =20 > consonant affected the tone, of which there are none in Lojban. This=20 > consonant=20 > was /k/, and is still pronounced in Min Nan, which is spoken in Taiwan an= d=20 > coastal areas of China. Thus the Lojbanized name should be "taibeik" or= =20 > "taibak" (or both).=20 > > I think this is too complicated to explain to beginners and another=20 > example=20 > should be used instead.=20 > Side notes. Although y'all are definitely talking about LFB 2.0 my current= =20 goal is=20 LFB 1.1 (fix formatting as the import in http://mw.lojban.org is not=20 perfect) and then LFB 1.2 (apply xorlo and dotside). As for the other issues it will lead to numerous discussions. And as la=20 lojbab. noted it will no longer be LFB. No matter what forks might appear in future (indeed they shouldnt be named= =20 LFB anymore) LFB 1.2 will continue to be a nice textbook. > Pierre=20 > --=20 > When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.=20 > J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada.=20 > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1653_20036793.1361860726137 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 5:39:29 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:=
On Monday, February 25, 2013 0= 9:40:01 Adam Chevalier wrote:
> That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojbanized name, isn't how its p= ronounced
> locally or in English.
> If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, t= hey
> should have used a proper example.

There are two things going on with that name:
1. Mandarin distinguishes aspirated and unaspirated stops; Lojban=20
distinguishes voiceless and voiced stops. To preserve the Mandarin=20
distinction, we should map the unaspirated /p/ to <b>, as Pinyin = does.
2. Being a proper name, it should end in a consonant in Lojban. In Chin= ese,=20
this consonant should come from Middle Chinese, if there was any, as th= e=20
consonant affected the tone, of which there are none in Lojban. This co= nsonant=20
was /k/, and is still pronounced in Min Nan, which is spoken in Taiwan = and=20
coastal areas of China. Thus the Lojbanized name should be "taibeik" or= =20
"taibak" (or both).

I think this is too complicated to explain to beginners and another exa= mple=20
should be used instead.

Side notes. Although y'all are definit= ely talking about LFB 2.0 my current goal is 
LFB 1.1 (fix f= ormatting as the import in http://mw.lojban.org is not perfect)
a= nd then
LFB 1.2 (apply xorlo and dotside).

As for the other issues it will lead to numerous discussions. And as la = lojbab. noted it will no longer be LFB.
No matter what forks migh= t appear in future (indeed they shouldnt be named LFB anymore) LFB 1.2 will= continue to be a nice textbook.


Pierre
--=20
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada.

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