Received: from mail-ia0-f185.google.com ([209.85.210.185]:53471) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UAvP5-0005uQ-LV; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:45 -0800 Received: by mail-ia0-f185.google.com with SMTP id m10sf564890iam.2 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2ab6S2sLQvAcFKCE19zFZdCCdwADkUJIBNzxaX9dhVM=; b=M/cDe6fWMe3I93kMMuVe24VmJbF/MiP2snwyMC+3xoSfmby2E5Xp6bpi7S2zuNHymg N2RSZuq+dd3Zb9LJ7ThJPHbx8Ps7xBpwy2KiQasKPOSjj2T6a64E4EEnmdAMr5Gi0zEa 3wKoGAYmXD3Lwp6bziOrRqXgXqaH/cxJq9KE90pIhFniSqnKlwSTOMG5B328Gu24WwU6 jI9Oan+cubwphxDJ0+iaWLqY1N91GaBLWQXA7IX0P4fJHHqyF/eTsTkN2AKITCwTGCCa ZM6JgS7JCeubvoxa/SPpA6CNrYsxnkxOUPqYumq+uMOsHvvmwdZcQevELA0JWzlnRNPd hkgg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2ab6S2sLQvAcFKCE19zFZdCCdwADkUJIBNzxaX9dhVM=; b=Srk8UOdXiGj35+6Ukw2wVBZC/OathbqpSOxYFdnTcylqE2iFm9D6JEnq32SJdf/jSh /d1JrkbEOU4HkSj+MqhsX34nUeDYTR2bg7AsbVdY/YGrRfUOR8JxuAIGwiLNeCOFFDb1 lOlXtVoIZl6afUqI8oxotvFg6MpB9TeUQGyE932fyS2jWKObl5Mh7R5NsltZ464e09eO R6D1WoDzFrbTk+uvXSP3cD2fvlvcv1A4iLF0NxGmHNmaX/3zYznYhVyMqyE+T4ytgO/5 0FaQ6SzUgDBce4V8sWfP7+41zgYlMVUql7Es1iudHDFvdDwthic7Iwrh8YzA2gYaCW/3 JjcA== X-Received: by 10.49.12.238 with SMTP id b14mr599952qec.18.1362026843970; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.84.101 with SMTP id x5ls481581qey.0.gmail; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:22 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.84.73 with SMTP id w9mr599272qey.34.1362026842609; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:47:22 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <86a0ad0a-12c7-4bbb-8a2c-ae8e3df6ba08@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <512E279E.4050906@lojban.org> References: <8c3e2925-e91a-4fe2-bcb0-bfa7504b4aaf@googlegroups.com> <51281489.1060706@lojban.org> <61c5697f-b690-4cb6-941f-3f5f78bdf621@googlegroups.com> <512E279E.4050906@lojban.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Towards Lojban for Beginners version 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_410_27983031.1362026842172" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_410_27983031.1362026842172 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:34:54 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: > > Adam Chevalier wrote: > > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM UTC-6, lojbab wrote: > > > > Adam Chevalier wrote: > > > I had considered making my own version of L4B to take care of > some > > > things that, personally, put me off. > > > There were a couple of Excercises that were "gotchas" and you > > don't want > > > those in learning material for beginners > > > (Mistranslating taipei under the auspices of "a b sounds like a p > > in the > > > local orthography" is a terrible excuse and it made it sound like > > Robin > > > was showing off) > > > > > Of course, by reading this board for several months I know it > > wasn't > > > intentional. > > > > > > Actually, LFB was written by Nick Nicolas and Robin Turner, and the > > example may have been used intentionally with international students > > (who probably know English well enough to use LFB) in mind, rather > than > > to "show off". The point is that the English pronunciation of > foreign > > names is often NOT a legitimate basis for Lojbanizing that name. > You > > want the native/local pronunciation if possible. > > > > > > That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojbanized name, isn't how its > > pronounced locally or in English. > > That would apparently be a disagreement between you and whichever author > wrote that example. > > Assuming that this is the Chinese name, we did adopt some standardized > rules for Lojbanization of phoneme sets in consultation with a couple of > native speakers. You may have a legitimate disagreement with whatever > was decided then, and it could be that an example using phonemes where > there is some disagreement on how to transcribe them is not the best > example for a beginner text. > > > If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, they > > should have used a proper example. > > Perhaps. But they used the example that they did. > > > > Some other recommendations: > > > > > > 1) Try not to emphasize the concept of malglico so much. > > > > Absolutely, one should do so. Lojban is NOT encoded English, and if > > one > > gets lazy, one will not be understood (or will be intentionally > > misunderstood by some people who are literal-minded and don't like > > malglico). > > > > I don't remember stating that Lojban was encoded English, or even > > implying it. > > That is the usual implication when one complains about the emphasis on > malglico, and the emphasis on malglico is specifically to counter the > tendency for (especially new) native-English Lojbanists to encode their > English phrasings based on Lojban keywords. > > > But the seeming emphasis on malglico can come across as insulting, > > especially with gotchas like ninmu. > > Anyone learning a language needs to have a thicker skin than that. > > Malglico usages ARE a serious problem for beginners, and it needs to be > repeatedly emphasized. If one is insulted by the reminders, then > perhaps one is too easily insulted. There is no one who has spoken > Lojban longer than Nora and myself, and yet we still sometimes screw up > on this problem. > > > > 3) Concepts and words related to language studies are confusing, > > please > > > give some kind of definition for these concepts. > > > > Technical terminology will often be opaque to someone not trained in > > the > > relevant field. I was confused about grammar terms for years > including > > the first couple of years AFTER I started separating Lojban from TLI > > Loglan. And even worse, sometimes technical terms have different > > meanings in colloquial English (e.g. the classic misuse of "theory" > by > > creationists). The latter is why I went to using the Lojban words > > untranslated. There really is no English translation of tanru that > > does > > the concept justice. > > > > > > I'm not talking about gismu, and tanru, and jbo'ivla. I'm talking about > > meta-linguistic terms. > > Words /about/ language that are thrown around that beginners are not > > likely to understand. > > Those include "gismu" and "tanru", etc. Maybe YOU understand them, but > I've dealt with many a beginner who did not. But they did a lot better > when we used the Lojban word, then when we used the English-equivalent > jargon. > Well while translating "Wave lessons" ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/wavelessonscontinued) to Russian we've got numerous (ba'uru'e) complaints that lojbanic words are hard to understand. Therefore we made the following replacements in the translation: sumka'i/pro-sumti > pronoun sumtcita > preposition jufra > utterance and several others. However, 1. when first introducing one of those terms the lojbanic name is presented in brackets. Sometimes it is introduced later. So it's just a tool for slowly making students get used to lojbanic terms. 2. "gismu, brivla, sumti, tanru" are not translated because there are no corresponding terms in Europeans languages. As for L4B in the wiki im not reformatting it atm (as im a bit busy with solving problems with Waves). If any of you can help me with reformatting it do not hesitate to start it now. Note that editing the text is currently out of the question. Let's work now on the original L4B 1.0 only. > Now maybe you are talking about some other English jargon words that > have not been given Lojban words. But you do not identify the words > that bothered you, so I had to make a guess. > > lojbab > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_410_27983031.1362026842172 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:34:54 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:Adam Chevalier wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM UTC-6, lojbab wrote:
>
> Adam Chevalier wrote:
> > I had considered making my own version of= L4B to take care of some
> > things that, personally, put me off.
> > There were a couple of Excercises that we= re "gotchas" and you
> don't want
> > those in learning material for beginners
> > (Mistranslating taipei under the auspices= of "a b sounds like a p
> in the
> > local orthography" is a terrible excuse a= nd it made it sound like
> Robin
> > was showing off)
>
> > Of course, by reading this board for sev= eral months I know it
> wasn't
> > intentional.
>
>
> Actually, LFB was written by Nick Nicolas and Robin = Turner, and the
> example may have been used intentionally with intern= ational students
> (who probably know English well enough to use LFB) i= n mind, rather than
> to "show off". The point is that the English p= ronunciation of foreign
> names is often NOT a legitimate basis for Lojbanizin= g that name. You
> want the native/local pronunciation if possible.
>
>
> That isn't my point. taibei, as a lojbanized name, isn't how its
> pronounced locally or in English.

That would apparently be a disagreement between you and whichever autho= r=20
wrote that example.

Assuming that this is the Chinese name, we did adopt some standardized= =20
rules for Lojbanization of phoneme sets in consultation with a couple o= f=20
native speakers. You may have a legitimate disagreement with what= ever=20
was decided then, and it could be that an example using phonemes where= =20
there is some disagreement on how to transcribe them is not the best=20
example for a beginner text.

> If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, t= hey
> should have used a proper example.

Perhaps. But they used the example that they did.

> > Some other recommendations:
> >
> > 1) Try not to emphasize the concept of ma= lglico so much.
>
> Absolutely, one should do so. Lojban is NOT en= coded English, and if
> one
> gets lazy, one will not be understood (or will= be intentionally
> misunderstood by some people who are literal-minded = and don't like
> malglico).
>
> I don't remember stating that Lojban was encoded English, or even
> implying it.

That is the usual implication when one complains about the emphasis on= =20
malglico, and the emphasis on malglico is specifically to counter the= =20
tendency for (especially new) native-English Lojbanists to encode their= =20
English phrasings based on Lojban keywords.

> But the seeming emphasis on malglico can come across as insulting,
> especially with gotchas like ninmu.

Anyone learning a language needs to have a thicker skin than that.

Malglico usages ARE a serious problem for beginners, and it needs to be= =20
repeatedly emphasized. If one is insulted by the reminders, then= =20
perhaps one is too easily insulted. There is no one who has spoke= n=20
Lojban longer than Nora and myself, and yet we still sometimes screw up= =20
on this problem.

> > 3) Concepts and words related to language= studies are confusing,
> please
> > give some kind of definition for these co= ncepts.
>
> Technical terminology will often be opaque to someon= e not trained in
> the
> relevant field. I was confused about grammar t= erms for years including
> the first couple of years AFTER I started separating= Lojban from TLI
> Loglan. And even worse, sometimes technical te= rms have different
> meanings in colloquial English (e.g. the classic mis= use of "theory" by
> creationists). The latter is why I went to usi= ng the Lojban words
> untranslated. There really is no English trans= lation of tanru that
> does
> the concept justice.
>
>
> I'm not talking about gismu, and tanru, and jbo'ivla. I'm talking = about
> meta-linguistic terms.
> Words /about/ language that are thrown around that beginners are n= ot
> likely to understand.

Those include "gismu" and "tanru", etc. Maybe YOU understand them= , but=20
I've dealt with many a beginner who did not. But they did a lot b= etter=20
when we used the Lojban word, then when we used the English-equivalent= =20
jargon.

Well while translating = "Wave lessons" (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/wavelessonscontinued) to Russian we'v= e got numerous (ba'uru'e) complaints that lojbanic words are hard to unders= tand. Therefore we made the following replacements in the translation:

sumka'i/pro-sumti > pronoun

sumtcita > preposition

jufra > utterance

and several others. H= owever,

1. when first introducing one of those terms the lojbanic= name is presented in brackets. Sometimes it is introduced later. So it's j= ust a tool for slowly making students get used to lojbanic terms.

2. "gismu, brivla, sumti, tanru" are not translated because there are no c= orresponding terms in Europeans languages.

As for = L4B in the wiki im not reformatting it atm (as im a bit busy with solving p= roblems with Waves). If any of you can help me with reformatting it do not = hesitate to start it now. Note that editing the text is currently out of th= e question. Let's work now on the original L4B 1.0 only.

Now maybe you are talking about some other English jargon words that=20
have not been given Lojban words. But you do not identify the wor= ds=20
that bothered you, so I had to make a guess.

lojbab

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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