On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Adam Ch= evalier <chevalieradam2@gmail.com> wrote:
My brain must have=A0hiccuped, I meant fu'ivla.

I= 9;m just trying to provide constructive feedback for la gleki.

Th= ey are one of a very few people that seem to have the time/drive/both to do= work on Lojban right now and I wanted to help steer the work in the right = direction.

Something I've noticed on this board is a strong re= jection of any kind of change.

Almost comes across as "Lojba= n is perfect! Everything that the LLG has done is absolutely fine! We don&#= 39;t need to improve on our methods!"

I'm of the opinion that improvements s= hould be made as soon as problems are found, thus improving forward compati= bility. I don't have any sympathy at all for backward compatibility.=A0=

stevo

I felt that I could offer a helpful point of view as a beginner.=A0<= /div>
If you want to improve your product, ask the customers.=A0
(= obvious caveats about customers not knowing what they want/need of course).=

I will say this, I learned a lot more from LFB th= en I did trying to slog through the CLL.

LFB isn't bad, it just can be better. I love Lojban and wan= t it to get the attention it deserves.

On Tuesday, February 2= 6, 2013 3:23:37 AM UTC-6, stevo wrote:

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Adam C= hevalier <chevali...@gmail.com> wrote= :

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:59:53 PM UTC-6, lojbab wrote:Adam Chevalier wrote:
> I had considered making my own version of L4B to take care of some
> things that, personally, put me off.
> There were a couple of Excercises that were "gotchas" an= d you don't want
> those in learning material for beginners
> (Mistranslating taipei under the auspices of "a b sounds like= a p in the
> local orthography" is a terrible excuse and it made it sound = like Robin
> was showing off)

=A0> Of course, by reading this board for several months I know it w= asn't
=A0> intentional.

Actually, LFB was written by Nick Nicolas and Robin Turner, and the=20
example may have been used intentionally with international students=20
(who probably know English well enough to use LFB) in mind, rather than= =20
to "show off". =A0The point is that the English pronunciation= of foreign=20
names is often NOT a legitimate basis for Lojbanizing that name. =A0You= =20
want the native/local pronunciation if possible.

That isn't my point. taibei,= as a lojbanized name, isn't how its pronounced locally or in English.<= /div>
If there intention was to teach that lesson, important as it is, = they should have used a proper example.

=A0
> Some other = recommendations:
>
> 1) Try not to emphasize the concept of malglico so much.

Absolutely, one should do so. =A0Lojban is NOT encoded English, and if = one=20
gets lazy, one will not be understood =A0(or will be intentionally=20
misunderstood by some people who are literal-minded and don't like= =20
malglico).

I don't remember stating tha= t Lojban was encoded English, or even implying it.
But the seemin= g emphasis on malglico can come across as insulting, especially with gotcha= s like ninmu.

=A0
> You /have/ = to
> explain lojban in English terms in order to teach it to an English
> audience, so translating ninmu to x1 is a woman and scolding the l= earner
> for assuming it means an adult isn't right (by the way, we hav= e a word
> for ninmu, its called female).

No. fetsi is the word for female, but is not limited to human(oid)s.=20
ninmu is a female human(oid) being, not necessarily adult. nixli is=20
expressly a girl (immature ninmu). =A0The definition of ninmu in the gi= smu=20
list specifically says that it is not necessarily an adult, so a learne= r=20
who assumes contrary to that definition probably deserves "scoldin= g"=20
(though preferably in a gentle, constructive tone).

It doesn't matter whats in t= he gismu list, we are talking about LFB.
LFB specifically transla= tes it as x1 is a woman. If you are going to translate it to English imp= roperly=A0you cannot scold them for misunderstanding.

The proper translation for ninmu, based on those gismu you just gave m= e, is x1 is a female humanoid.
=A0
> 2) Find ways to explain the concepts without resorting to "If you= 're a
> Mathematician, computer programmer, or a logician, its like these = things."

For some things derived from formal systems, like lambda calculus, I=20
suspect that it is difficult to manage this, but good luck.

I'm not talking about lambda= calculus, i'm talking about predicate logic.
Saying "Fo= r programmers, its like a parameter." And then just drop it for everyo= ne else.

That is all I'm getting at. I'd like to see Lojban expand beyo= nd hobbyists and people in Math related fields.
=A0
> 3) Concepts and words related to language studies are confusing, pleas= e
> give some kind of definition for these concepts.

Technical terminology will often be opaque to someone not trained in th= e=20
relevant field. =A0I was confused about grammar terms for years includi= ng=20
the first couple of years AFTER I started separating Lojban from TLI=20
Loglan. =A0And even worse, sometimes technical terms have different=20
meanings in colloquial English (e.g. the classic misuse of "theory= " by=20
creationists). =A0The latter is why I went to using the Lojban words=20
untranslated. =A0There really is no English translation of tanru that d= oes=20
the concept justice.

I'm not talking about gismu,= and tanru, and jbo'ivla.

ma smu= ni zo jbo'ivla

mi'e stevon

I'm talking about meta-li= nguistic terms.
Words about=A0language that are thrown aro= und that beginners are not likely to understand.

=A0
> =A0 = =A0 Anyway, what do you think, should we start updating it to reflect
> =A0 =A0 the latest improvements to the grammar and the way lojban = should be
> =A0 =A0 taught?

The only approved change to the grammar is xorlo.

And there is no agreement on how Lojban "should be" taught.

I happen to like the way that Russian-written textbooks teach Russian,= =20
but it is considerably different from how American-written textbooks do= =20
so. =A0Each is tailored to a certain style of teaching and a certain=20
audience. =A0"better" requires that you fill in ALL the place= s of xamgu,=20
including the standard. =A0"correct" (drani), is even tougher= ; it also has=20
property and situation places besides the standard.

If someone wants to write a new intro textbook that embodies their own= =20
ideas for teaching the language, then go ahead and do so. =A0But write = it=20
anew rather than "updating" what doesn't need an "up= date", and call it=20
something different. =A0Unlike CLL, which is part of the formal languag= e=20
definition, beginning textbooks need not all be written to the same=20
standard.

lojbab

=A0