Received: from mail-qc0-f183.google.com ([209.85.216.183]:55005) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UDpqs-0003ue-FA; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:28:31 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f183.google.com with SMTP id i13sf314182qcs.10 for ; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:28:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6CJhq3wDnqhMSM/mCVAEiBnOdK6xMqjF5vUtSU5Z1bs=; b=WpKWMgRDOmPbEZE2YtShl+vDlpyI379v0RYBLJ0x0+REgj+dUkiqpvlbHw60suPRdn Qs8OMqwXqQ+Z6D6iYbuASjNhTm/5+e7eRj6I9GFT+pRARjoFuHVqkO2qia8kUyoHLWPE pZIjLWKValgzTdlYncA+bT1VV0LxP/3X9R0YN1If0O1kyJhANA8IsN2A8h5dZl1kVuwW 1spItzw3UlB0KurfppseZOskNoof2BFpe2Z3HUul1lxJ5qcWXR1/SNCMfvQhLNUovrCo N2GbkoV3lfW0z3DpPs5LFR8KeG5un0f/+XVjs6Nud/kko6GuvkheLw2841TPJCqWusYG aWjA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6CJhq3wDnqhMSM/mCVAEiBnOdK6xMqjF5vUtSU5Z1bs=; b=AeX7giHab46XDgjbNgtagZEQt1wkYaaCz4zRRo895RcdZCAWuwu0d+R6a7xXOPDge0 QjissrHe0cQHYphQNlrJw2WMjvFcxcHA9hScMOO3PVCz0H+DkBIz5StP5pQ9NUE9VRs1 O5d0C8YxpGISZMVrs0e1v7GlbY+CP0vomSkBkbgRmdue/U6eQ7kIwFUq+Hqc/dN/ByUF 7IkM3u+W2O+YslNXZvDkxivt5uo0b9WDWI+QkkTTcDXHv6vCptiD3tj78P55XhBPIpy3 vPYiFmJ97zrGykPjLce+oM8V/Bu6amxf6N8x/i6CLfio7XBvb8KpXTukdNchXrmtJTJw tviw== X-Received: by 10.49.71.135 with SMTP id v7mr48097qeu.28.1362720490986; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:28:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.3.138 with SMTP id c10ls76147qec.54.gmail; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.49.85.35 with SMTP id e3mr50997qez.7.1362720489569; Thu, 07 Mar 2013 21:28:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 21:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20130220133507.GB3918@samsa.fritz.box> References: <20130220133507.GB3918@samsa.fritz.box> Subject: [lojban] Re: {le} and {lo} ... and Keith Donnellan? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_288_2760145.1362720488733" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_288_2760145.1362720488733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *xorlo, bi'unai, Spinoza and Keith Donnellan.* So let's get started. Every child being born gets his/her experience in the form of particular=20 feelings. E.g. the word "mother" denotes only one object, namely, "The=20 Mother" of this child. "Apple" denotes only the apple being given to this= =20 child. The realisation of the fact that there are other objects named=20 apples comes later. This is the way from direct feeling of events to=20 abstractions. This the way to true science the main principle of which is= =20 "the repeatability of events must exist" (i.e. if this is an apple then may= =20 be other apples can emerge in future). This is how the word "any" comes=20 into lexicon of every child ("Give me any apple" whereas earlier the child= =20 can only want to say "Give the apple in front of me" (even if the child=20 can't express that in words. It doesn't matter. I'm talking about his/her= =20 desire to say that. The child can express that in gestures or something=20 else). Not that grown-ups lose such ability of describing specific objects. It's= =20 just the frequency of this concept (of specific objects being sensed) that= =20 slowly drops in speech and experience until reaching some level. I'm not an expert on Spinoza but it seems that his concept of triple=20 knowledge (opinion, reason, intuition) actually describes subjective=20 knowledge (personal opinion), objective knowledge (science formed by voting= =20 of experts on a given topic) and direct feeling (something that you know=20 from your own experience and no one else can, see the discussion of {vedli}= =20 in a separate thread). Now let's turn to Donellan's views. The main difference is in the sentence (1) Smith's murderer is insane Attributive use: the sentence is used to say something about whoever=20 uniquely murdered Smith. Paradigm case: (1) is asserted on purely general= =20 grounds. Referential use: the sentence is used to say something about a particular= =20 person { the one we have in mind. Paradigm case: (1) is asserted on the=20 basis of odd behavior by the defendant The contrast with such an attributive use of (1) is one of those situations= =20 in which we expect and intend our audience to realize whom we have in mind= =20 when we speak of Smith's murderer and, most importantly, to know that it is= =20 this person about whom we are going to say something. Another important thing is that Donnellan uses Russell=92s definition of=20 denoting: =91a definite description denotes an entity if that entity fits t= he=20 description uniquely=92. But, like Strawson, he thinks of referring as a=20 relation between a speaker that the thing he or she means to be talking=20 about.=20 The keyword here is "uniquely". I think it's identical to the concept of=20 "the apple" that we have with the child in the beginning of this post. Now what xorlo has to do with it? lo [PA] broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda [gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda] le [PA] broda =3D zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda [gi'e zilkancu= =20 li PA lo broda] I'm not sure that {skicu} is the right word. I'm not sure if {le}=20 corresponds to referential use. Of course referential use can't be expressed with {bi'unai} because=20 {bi'unai} can refer to **any** {broda} that we encountered earlier. And=20 {bi'unai} is more about information known, not about specific object that= =20 the speaker and the listener agreed to talk about. That's all that I can say about Donellan's views for now. May be additional= =20 comments from me will come later. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_288_2760145.1362720488733 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
xorlo, bi'unai, Spinoza and Keith Donnellan.

So let's get started.
Every child being born gets his/her = experience in the form of particular feelings. E.g. the word "mother" denot= es only one object, namely, "The Mother" of this child. "Apple" denotes onl= y the apple being given to this child. The realisation of the fact that the= re are other objects named apples comes later. This is the way from direct = feeling of events to abstractions. This the way to true science the main pr= inciple of which is "the repeatability of events must exist" (i.e. if this = is an apple then may be other apples can emerge in future). This is how the= word "any" comes into lexicon of every child ("Give me any apple" whereas = earlier the child can only want to say "Give the apple in front of me" (eve= n if the child can't express that in words. It doesn't matter. I'm talking = about his/her desire to say that. The child can express that in gestures or= something else).
Not that grown-ups lose such ability of describ= ing specific objects. It's just the frequency of this concept (of specific = objects being sensed) that slowly drops in speech and experience until reac= hing some level.
I'm not an expert on Spinoza but it seems that h= is concept of triple knowledge (opinion, reason, intuition) actually descri= bes subjective knowledge (personal opinion), objective knowledge (science f= ormed by voting of experts on a given topic) and direct feeling (something = that you know from your own experience and no one else can, see the discuss= ion of {vedli} in a separate thread).

Now let's tu= rn to Donellan's views.
The main difference is in the sentence
(1) Smith's murderer is insane

Attributive= use: the sentence is used to say something about whoever uniquely murdered= Smith. Paradigm case: (1) is asserted on purely general grounds.
Referential use: the sentence is used to say something about a particular = person { the one we have in mind. Paradigm case: (1) is asserted on the bas= is of odd behavior by the defendant

The contrast w= ith such an attributive use of (1) is one of those situations in which we e= xpect and intend our audience to realize whom we have in mind when we speak= of Smith's murderer and, most importantly, to know that it is this person = about whom we are going to say something.


Another important thing is that Donnellan uses Russell=92s definitio= n of denoting: =91a definite description denotes an entity if that entity f= its the description uniquely=92. But, like Strawson, he thinks of referring= as a relation between a speaker that the thing he or she means to be talki= ng about. 

The keyword here is "uniquely". I = think it's identical to the concept of "the apple" that we have with the ch= ild in the beginning of this post.

Now what xorlo = has to do with it?
lo [PA] broda =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda [gi'e zilkancu li = PA lo broda]
le [PA] broda =3D zo'e noi mi ke'a do skicu lo ka ce'u broda [= gi'e zilkancu li PA lo broda]

I'm not sure that {s= kicu} is the right word. I'm not sure if {le} corresponds to referential us= e.
Of course referential use can't be expressed with {bi'unai} be= cause {bi'unai} can refer to *any* {broda} that we encountered earli= er. And {bi'unai} is more about information known, not about specific objec= t that the speaker and the listener agreed to talk about.


That's all that I can say about Donellan's views for= now. May be additional comments from me will come later.

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