Received: from mail-ea0-f190.google.com ([209.85.215.190]:41507) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UEIRr-0001DO-DX; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:47 -0800 Received: by mail-ea0-f190.google.com with SMTP id h14sf527539eak.17 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Lq9TH1cF0elI6jHiAxuntphIOJzEPLvPxyIePVBcvac=; b=KEoT04tisVXZenJTpeI4t3fLK3/TQh7glWvMmFUtEQF27ph10cMUNgaOXKiN++WF7J VFnxfyQY/usAeAl8g0One3NxsXpKkFHesZwsjHECdGt3+xHPuBYbQK2dpj46WGganJzo kTM9FZ3zk4/qNYYSid69ORdNNfZfxSSE1M3OpUUesbS0GS4lroL6LYOBe3YrAMjnuTmn WSbSiP8wnTUASEtCHFxXoWXBL9LiaNMIISxhbjF9zF+PhjFN9fFAJa+Z/KMUEX6YUubr xxn2Sg5MN3bHlBFXZ8ynudTmM2jxsSe0XCRVvFZCM66qQrB3XvR5AIF54yeJP9n7gGkh nVpw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Lq9TH1cF0elI6jHiAxuntphIOJzEPLvPxyIePVBcvac=; b=yeX20esy0PX7cBrwlPY0WyP6CU2TTGVk+tjmRAw/LqNL4LAqCH07RvqgtnzCCv5rbI 2D0CF16hd5uFXMFChTKQ6PFGImaMqBDO3K97ATi8PmCcjrmePCguW1qWYaQ13gkczTd9 Mo9QSvznSuQsgNzREgMSIR9f2dBx7sLOWEsb50NZ8DJrYUbjUWy8wX94ub5PIN7zG+/e WzGQJQpr8Z746J1+j6nHCQQx8cq/njrRGmmuleCz5f+AtgV121GxsHZLACKlAwiDlK/5 QW623xN+bCkvphPvyPCbQTSCXkfZnvaiPzbJxMCef8TDUlZ3lnjm6gRmjmbkSt06KGsS 1u1Q== X-Received: by 10.180.185.197 with SMTP id fe5mr265578wic.18.1362830414451; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.87.66 with SMTP id v2ls164884wiz.4.canary; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.95.97 with SMTP id dj1mr564181wib.4.1362830413737; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-we0-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cv1si322768wib.0.2013.03.09.04.00.13 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d; Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id x51so1930238wey.4 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.94.69 with SMTP id da5mr3305895wib.30.1362830413460; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.29.202 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 04:00:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20111216191725.GC22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <0c94ef7c-d87f-448a-ae36-6fd8e32f233d@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 05:00:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Mini-rant: gismu place consistency From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442694aaf00de04d77cae05 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0442694aaf00de04d77cae05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:33 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: > On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM, la gleki wrote: > >> On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: >>> >>> >>> If I had it to do over again, every gismu with an agent place would >>> have it as the first place. Every gismu with an audience or second >>> agent of any type would have it as the second place. There would >>> probably be several other regularities as well. >> >> >> Let's assume that >> xau = BAI tag denoting agent or reference frame. >> .iei = BAI tag denoting object. >> .uai = BAI tag denoting property of the object. >> >> Then we can rephrase many gismu as >> ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e = xau mi djuno .uai lo ka brode >> .iei ko'i >> (the same for {morji} and company) >> >> ko'a kakne lo ka brode = xau [je .iei] mi kakne .uai lo ka brode >> ko'a te mukti lo nu brode = xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo ka brode kei te >> mukti >> (May be xau = gau or xau = ma'i) >> These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed here if we >> use {jai}). >> >> For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be'i} tags (if {benji} >> is about sending objects, not information) as the core semantic prime for >> those gismu seems to be the same. >> For sending information another set of BAI might be needed. >> >> >>> I've been saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I >>> *still* have trouble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi >>> manci do}. GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. >>> >> >> This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget about >> {manci}. >> {xabju = se zdani} is a better example showing redundancy. >> > > The problem isn't redundancy, it's consistency. > Place structures should be as consistent as possible. > Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allowed to review this and actually do something about it. Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know which gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to make it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects the corpus. Any volunteers? > stevo > >> >> >> -Robin >>> >>> -- >>> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >>> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot >>> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" >>> is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/**rlp/ >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --f46d0442694aaf00de04d77cae05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:33 AM, MorphemeAddict <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM= , la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
If I had it to do over again, ever= y gismu with an agent place would
have it as the first place. =A0Every gismu with an audience or second
ag= ent of any type would have it as the second place. =A0There would
probab= ly be several other regularities as well.

Let's assume that
xau =3D BAI tag denoting agent or refe= rence frame.
.iei =3D BAI tag denoting object.
.uai =3D= BAI tag denoting property of the object.

Then we = can rephrase many gismu as
ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e =3D xau mi djun= o .uai lo ka brode .iei ko'i
(the same for {morji} and compan= y)

ko'a kakne lo ka brode =3D xau [je .iei] mi= kakne .uai lo ka brode
ko'a te mukti lo nu brode =3D xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo k= a brode kei te mukti=A0
(May be xau =3D gau or xau =3D ma'i)<= br>
These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed= here if we use {jai}).

For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be= 9;i} tags (if {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the cor= e semantic prime for those gismu seems to be the same.
For sendin= g information another set of BAI might be needed.
=A0

I've been= saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I
*still* have tro= uble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi
manci do}. =A0GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.


This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget abou= t {manci}.
{xabju =3D se zdani} is a better example showing redun= dancy.

The problem isn't redundancy, it= 's consistency. =A0
Place structures should be as consistent = as possible.=A0

Agreed. I will be very hap= py when we're allowed to review this and actually do something about it= .

Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know wh= ich gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to mak= e it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects th= e corpus. Any volunteers?
=A0
stevo


-Robin

--
= http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is = "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"=
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp= /

--
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=A0
=A0

--
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=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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