On Sat, Mar = 9, 2013 at 5:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.= com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:00:13 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:= 33 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
If I had it to do over again, ever= y gismu with an agent place would
have it as the first place. Every gismu with an audience or secondagent of any type would have it as the second place. There would
= probably be several other regularities as well.

=

Let's assume that
xau =3D BAI tag denoting agent or referenc= e frame.
.iei =3D BAI tag denoting object.
.uai =3D BAI= tag denoting property of the object.

Then we can = rephrase many gismu as

ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e =3D xau mi djuno .uai lo ka bro= de .iei ko'i
(the same for {morji} and company)

ko'a kakne lo ka brode =3D xau [je .iei] mi kakne .uai lo ka brode<= /div>
ko'a te mukti lo nu brode =3D xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo ka brode kei = te mukti
(May be xau =3D gau or xau =3D ma'i)
These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed here if we u= se {jai}).

For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be'i}= tags (if {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the core se= mantic prime for those gismu seems to be the same.
For sending in= formation another set of BAI might be needed.

I've been = saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I
*still* have trou= ble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi
manci do}. GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

=
This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget a= bout {manci}.
{xabju =3D se zdani} is a better example showing re= dundancy.

The problem isn't redundancy, it's c= onsistency.

Place structures should be as consistent as po= ssible.

Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allowed to review this and ac= tually do something about it.

Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know wh= ich gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to mak= e it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects the corpus.<= /div>

How is that possible ? I= showed how to "fix" that using BAI, SE and (semiseriously) experimen= tal BAI.

That's not a fix, it's a workaround. If= you don't know the difference, look it up.

Are there other methods?
Even if all agentive gismu had agent in x1 then newbies would still= complain that non-agentive gismu break this "rule".

Then they would be wrong, because the whole thing is = about consistency of place structure among similar gismu, not about about m= aking every gismu have the exact same place structure.

Or e.g. what's common in djuno3 and klama3, vecnu2 and lakne2? Nothing= .

Well, obviously. They're not in the same famil= y.

However, klama, litru, muvdu, pluta, bevri, and farlu are in the = same family: transportation. Note that they also have similar place structu= res. In fact, {litru} =3D {klama zi'o zi'o}, {muvdu} =3D {klama fu zi'o}, {= pluta} =3D {ve klama veka'a loi mokca fo zi'o zi'o}, {bevri} =3D {zo'e poi = lo jgari ku'o klagau faxixa zi'o} and {farlu} =3D {klani'a fo zi'o zi'o ci'= e zo'e}. As you can see, while there are some variances as to what places t= here are, all of the /shared/ places are in the same exact order, and usual= ly even in the "x" place.

W= hy not using {ka'a} cmavo instead of all those places?

As another example, all of the gismu of the measurement family have the= exact same place structure: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] by standard x= 3", and for non-metric: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] in standard x3 wit= h sub-units x4", /except/ for mitre: "x1 is x2 meters in direction x3 by st= andard x4", which moves the typical x3 place to the x4 and places an additi= onal "in direction" place in its stead, and minli: "x1 is x2 long local dis= tance units with sub-units x3 in standard x4", which has the exact same pla= ces as it's brethren, except that the final two are in reverse order.

Oh, that's another case. As lojb= ab mentioned this wasn't intentional. Fixing this is a must. E.g. I can do = that now in Russian translation. This fix won't change the corpus much.

Still newbies will have to = remember that both for djuno3 and klama3 in order to reach this place you h= ave to use either {fi} or {te}. So what problems of learnability of the lan= guage would be solved? None.

Incorrect. Consistency of place structure amongst gis= mu families solves the problem of having to remember exceptions to the typi= cal place structure, for the simple reason that there would /be none/.

Any volunteers?

Well, i wouldn't recommend changing gismu definitions. Gi= smu space is undepletable.

Which is not the poin= t. The reason for the desire to /fix/ the place structure of the inconsiste= nt gismu is because they are, as is, broken. And before you ask how they ar= e broken, the answer is: because they are inconsistent.

We can create alternative g= ismu for that.

Which only makes things worse in = this scenario. Say we make an "alternative gismu" for mitre. First off, wha= t shape should it have? {mitre} is arguably the best shape for the Lojban w= ord for "meter". Secondly, how would convince people to stop using mitre an= d instead use this new word, when they've already learned {mitre}=3D"meter"= ? Would it not be simpler to merely say "From now on, the x3 place of mitre= is the standard place, and the direction place is x4.", especially since m= itre's x3 and x4 are so seldom used it wouldn't really affect the corpus, a= nd would make it consistent with its brethren, thus making it easier to lea= rn fully?

Besides, given that many ha= te the sounding of gismu ("selsiclu dukse" syndrom and abhorrence of "la ka= fkylerfu") and complain that 6-language mixture made gismu unrecognisable f= or everyone this can be even advisable.

Personal feelings as to the choice of the shapes of t= he gismu is irrelevant to this issue. It is an issue all its own and should= be discussed separately.

Anyway you can add me to your team of volunteers. Just show= several examples of how it might look like.

I g= ave two examples above, but this is basically the process in its entirety:<= br>
1) Take the whole of the gismu, possibly including the experimental one= s, and group them into families. Species {badna}, Transportation {klama}, M= ode of Travel {cadzu}, Measurement {mitre}, and Comparatives {barda} are a = few families I can think of off the top of my head. Species might need to b= e split into the kingdoms (animal, plant, etc.) just because of size.

Well, .ui I'm already working on categorisation of gismu.

Your comments might instigate me to revise this categorisation.

2) Look at each family, and determine the typical place structure of th= at family: what are the places, in what order do they appear, etc.

3= ) Find the gismu that do not have that place structure, and determine what = the differences are, and if they are justified (for example, {pluta} has a = slightly atypical structure, but it is obviously justified, whereas {mitre}= 's inconsistency is much harder to argue for)

4) Determine what the smallest change would be required to bring the in= consistent gismu in line with the typical one for its family (such as rever= sing the x3 and x4 places of mitre and minli).

5) Determine how this= change would affect the corpus (i.e. instances of usage thus far), and doc= ument this for each gismu. (For example, does reversing the x3 and x4 place= s affect the meaning of any currently existing bridi which have {mitre} in = them? If so, how many are affected, and what would the new meaning be?)

=
stevo

-Robin
--
= http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future= .
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi sp= itaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"
is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/

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= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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