Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:61617) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UELQ1-0004Al-8e; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:11:05 -0800 Received: by mail-we0-f189.google.com with SMTP id r6sf875379wey.6 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mVOAjBSHVEGOyh++T36uJ5YxYMBL9BA4NAQnVocLZu4=; b=YxSiItlo2tvnMC7/WQ4kXLCxRrx96CrP0cMm7sVP1dtbFYYuPM8/QHStPB0Fspck9Y o1MDdygQM/iggOKN8yv4aIcoU03OeVfglckxFDf127Q4fF/3CWsSY86UEtQDUDtvf+n/ 4hjqsDr/lRC60e41Kw1turAQqEYJF8UQY2vdYW1XM54bUZtE7fg8KFSI/z+tha8Lv87U qFtxH8NaZCGG+P2Tz4obay1fzzNGJmLhbg9s4Rf20Do+h60WOkJcRJ0F8Or3ywnZzKn0 Ett+iunLKSer9cP8Hyuj8wmBnI1yoBoPS4gpnCXedWOlIVJLDBf4gzopzbx+IZvW44TH hS8A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=mVOAjBSHVEGOyh++T36uJ5YxYMBL9BA4NAQnVocLZu4=; b=Yn5r71P+ElNIdCvWhINHL7bAiKP9c2xhqunZ0ndISzRRlVm/a0zwRCeYQSOKjmOzeN 2d/b4BEZgTKzjNghVx+njGOzKho2Ng6JLufAkkpirgwRuszEsnBF5NRfOdrxXwTmIqbV eZPxIc6MyYu6yXDWrg13u8xwwv1Q78przO5rRs4HrtdDtjuwDeiCw++gWNoO7ep7AxXX BpWP+tVJsXWl3fzjMRDfiD6MXHxH/FAvr20sdV3MtAS8GyST21p7m5patYyfb4kmXOvc o2mUwGnyVubDiZmJDHUNcfZRbzcsT26PcuwdUit/gqLIT9v2zG2OsoM7A789XNJ4ZIKd nQZQ== X-Received: by 10.180.19.105 with SMTP id d9mr301805wie.10.1362841833618; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.20.100 with SMTP id m4ls183830wie.50.canary; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.204.107.141 with SMTP id b13mr293237bkp.6.1362841832638; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x22f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 14si801852bky.0.2013.03.09.07.10.32 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f; Received: by mail-la0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id fj20so2619114lab.34 for ; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.110.74 with SMTP id hy10mr5118683lab.37.1362841832214; Sat, 09 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.5.196 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Mar 2013 07:10:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8d32372c-8b7b-4888-9126-6edcf6d514fc@googlegroups.com> References: <20111216191725.GC22027@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <0c94ef7c-d87f-448a-ae36-6fd8e32f233d@googlegroups.com> <8d32372c-8b7b-4888-9126-6edcf6d514fc@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2013 08:10:32 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Mini-rant: gismu place consistency From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec54ee8c84b57ce04d77f5774 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec54ee8c84b57ce04d77f5774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 7:30 AM, la gleki wrote: > On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:13:55 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:32 AM, la gleki wrote: >> >>> On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:00:13 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:33 AM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I had it to do over again, every gismu with an agent place would >>>>>>> have it as the first place. Every gismu with an audience or second >>>>>>> agent of any type would have it as the second place. There would >>>>>>> probably be several other regularities as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's assume that >>>>>> xau = BAI tag denoting agent or reference frame. >>>>>> .iei = BAI tag denoting object. >>>>>> .uai = BAI tag denoting property of the object. >>>>>> >>>>>> Then we can rephrase many gismu as >>>>>> ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e = xau mi djuno .uai lo ka >>>>>> brode .iei ko'i >>>>>> (the same for {morji} and company) >>>>>> >>>>>> ko'a kakne lo ka brode = xau [je .iei] mi kakne .uai lo ka brode >>>>>> ko'a te mukti lo nu brode = xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo ka brode kei >>>>>> te mukti >>>>>> (May be xau = gau or xau = ma'i) >>>>>> These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed here if >>>>>> we use {jai}). >>>>>> >>>>>> For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be'i} tags (if >>>>>> {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the core semantic >>>>>> prime for those gismu seems to be the same. >>>>>> For sending information another set of BAI might be needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I >>>>>>> *still* have trouble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi >>>>>>> manci do}. GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget about >>>>>> {manci}. >>>>>> {xabju = se zdani} is a better example showing redundancy. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The problem isn't redundancy, it's consistency. >>>>> Place structures should be as consistent as possible. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allowed to review this and >>>> actually do something about it. >>>> >>> >>>> Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know >>>> which gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to >>>> make it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects the >>>> corpus. >>>> >>> >>> How is that possible ? I showed how to "fix" that using BAI, SE and >>> (semiseriously) experimental BAI. >>> >> >> That's not a fix, it's a workaround. If you don't know the difference, >> look it up. >> >> >>> Are there other methods? >>> Even if all agentive gismu had agent in x1 then newbies would still >>> complain that non-agentive gismu break this "rule". >>> >> >> Then they would be wrong, because the whole thing is about consistency of >> place structure among similar gismu, not about about making every gismu >> have the exact same place structure. >> >> >>> Or e.g. what's common in djuno3 and klama3, vecnu2 and lakne2? Nothing. >>> >> >> Well, obviously. They're not in the same family. >> >> However, klama, litru, muvdu, pluta, bevri, and farlu are in the same >> family: transportation. Note that they also have similar place structures. >> In fact, {litru} = {klama zi'o zi'o}, {muvdu} = {klama fu zi'o}, {pluta} = >> {ve klama veka'a loi mokca fo zi'o zi'o}, {bevri} = {zo'e poi lo jgari ku'o >> klagau faxixa zi'o} and {farlu} = {klani'a fo zi'o zi'o ci'e zo'e}. As you >> can see, while there are some variances as to what places there are, all of >> the /shared/ places are in the same exact order, and usually even in the >> "x" place. >> > > Why not using {ka'a} cmavo instead of all those places? > I don't understand the question. > As another example, all of the gismu of the measurement family have the >> exact same place structure: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] by standard >> x3", and for non-metric: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] in standard x3 >> with sub-units x4", /except/ for mitre: "x1 is x2 meters in direction x3 by >> standard x4", which moves the typical x3 place to the x4 and places an >> additional "in direction" place in its stead, and minli: "x1 is x2 long >> local distance units with sub-units x3 in standard x4", which has the exact >> same places as it's brethren, except that the final two are in reverse >> order. >> > > Oh, that's another case. As lojbab mentioned this wasn't intentional. > Fixing this is a must. E.g. I can do that now in Russian translation. This > fix won't change the corpus much. > > >> >> >>> Still newbies will have to remember that both for djuno3 and klama3 in >>> order to reach this place you have to use either {fi} or {te}. So what >>> problems of learnability of the language would be solved? None. >>> >> >> Incorrect. Consistency of place structure amongst gismu families solves >> the problem of having to remember exceptions to the typical place >> structure, for the simple reason that there would /be none/. >> >> >>> Any volunteers? >>>> >>> >>> Well, i wouldn't recommend changing gismu definitions. Gismu space is >>> undepletable. >>> >> >> Which is not the point. The reason for the desire to /fix/ the place >> structure of the inconsistent gismu is because they are, as is, broken. And >> before you ask how they are broken, the answer is: because they are >> inconsistent. >> >> >>> We can create alternative gismu for that. >>> >> >> Which only makes things worse in this scenario. Say we make an >> "alternative gismu" for mitre. First off, what shape should it have? >> {mitre} is arguably the best shape for the Lojban word for "meter". >> Secondly, how would convince people to stop using mitre and instead use >> this new word, when they've already learned {mitre}="meter"? Would it not >> be simpler to merely say "From now on, the x3 place of mitre is the >> standard place, and the direction place is x4.", especially since mitre's >> x3 and x4 are so seldom used it wouldn't really affect the corpus, and >> would make it consistent with its brethren, thus making it easier to learn >> fully? >> >> >>> Besides, given that many hate the sounding of gismu ("selsiclu dukse" >>> syndrom and abhorrence of "la kafkylerfu") and complain that 6-language >>> mixture made gismu unrecognisable for everyone this can be even advisable. >>> >> >> Personal feelings as to the choice of the shapes of the gismu is >> irrelevant to this issue. It is an issue all its own and should be >> discussed separately. >> >> >>> Anyway you can add me to your team of volunteers. Just show several >>> examples of how it might look like. >>> >> >> I gave two examples above, but this is basically the process in its >> entirety: >> >> 1) Take the whole of the gismu, possibly including the experimental ones, >> and group them into families. Species {badna}, Transportation {klama}, Mode >> of Travel {cadzu}, Measurement {mitre}, and Comparatives {barda} are a few >> families I can think of off the top of my head. Species might need to be >> split into the kingdoms (animal, plant, etc.) just because of size. >> > > Well, .ui I'm already working > on > categorisation of gismu. > Your comments might instigate me to revise this categorisation. > > > >> >> 2) Look at each family, and determine the typical place structure of that >> family: what are the places, in what order do they appear, etc. >> >> 3) Find the gismu that do not have that place structure, and determine >> what the differences are, and if they are justified (for example, {pluta} >> has a slightly atypical structure, but it is obviously justified, whereas >> {mitre}'s inconsistency is much harder to argue for) >> >> 4) Determine what the smallest change would be required to bring the >> inconsistent gismu in line with the typical one for its family (such as >> reversing the x3 and x4 places of mitre and minli). >> >> 5) Determine how this change would affect the corpus (i.e. instances of >> usage thus far), and document this for each gismu. (For example, does >> reversing the x3 and x4 places affect the meaning of any currently existing >> bridi which have {mitre} in them? If so, how many are affected, and what >> would the new meaning be?) >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>> stevo >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Robin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >>>>>>> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot >>>>>>> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" >>>>>>> is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/***** >>>>>>> *rlp/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban?hl=en >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban?hl=en >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --bcaec54ee8c84b57ce04d77f5774 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 7:30 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:13:55 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
= On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.= ..@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:00:13 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:= 33 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
If I had it to do over again, ever= y gismu with an agent place would
have it as the first place. =A0Every gismu with an audience or second
ag= ent of any type would have it as the second place. =A0There would
probab= ly be several other regularities as well.

Let's assume that
xau =3D BAI tag denoting agent or refe= rence frame.
.iei =3D BAI tag denoting object.
.uai =3D= BAI tag denoting property of the object.

Then we = can rephrase many gismu as
ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e =3D xau mi djun= o .uai lo ka brode .iei ko'i
(the same for {morji} and compan= y)

ko'a kakne lo ka brode =3D xau [je .iei] mi= kakne .uai lo ka brode
ko'a te mukti lo nu brode =3D xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo k= a brode kei te mukti=A0
(May be xau =3D gau or xau =3D ma'i)<= br>
These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed= here if we use {jai}).

For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be= 9;i} tags (if {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the cor= e semantic prime for those gismu seems to be the same.
For sendin= g information another set of BAI might be needed.
=A0

I've been= saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I
*still* have tro= uble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi
manci do}. =A0GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.


This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget abou= t {manci}.
{xabju =3D se zdani} is a better example showing redun= dancy.

The problem isn't redundancy, it= 's consistency. =A0
Place structures should be as consistent = as possible. =A0

Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allowed to review this an= d actually do something about it.=A0

Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know wh= ich gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to mak= e it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects th= e corpus.

How is that possible ? I= showed how to "fix" =A0that using BAI, SE and (semiseriously) ex= perimental BAI.

That's not a fix, it's a= workaround. If you don't know the difference, look it up.
=A0
Are there other methods?
=
Even if all agentive gismu had agent in x1 then newbies would still co= mplain that non-agentive gismu break this "rule".

Then they would be wrong, because the whole thing is = about consistency of place structure among similar gismu, not about about m= aking every gismu have the exact same place structure.
=A0
Or e.g. what's common in djuno3 and klama3, vecnu2 and lakne2? Not= hing.

Well, obviously. They're not in the sa= me family.

However, klama, litru, muvdu, pluta, bevri, and farlu are= in the same family: transportation. Note that they also have similar place= structures. In fact, {litru} =3D {klama zi'o zi'o}, {muvdu} =3D {k= lama fu zi'o}, {pluta} =3D {ve klama veka'a loi mokca fo zi'o z= i'o}, {bevri} =3D {zo'e poi lo jgari ku'o klagau faxixa zi'= o} and {farlu} =3D {klani'a fo zi'o zi'o ci'e zo'e}. As= you can see, while there are some variances as to what places there are, a= ll of the /shared/ places are in the same exact order, and usually even in = the "x" place.

Why not using {ka&= #39;a} cmavo instead of all those places?

I don&= #39;t understand the question.
=A0
As another example, all of the gismu of the measurement family have the exa= ct same place structure: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] by standard = x3", and for non-metric: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] in stan= dard x3 with sub-units x4", /except/ for mitre: "x1 is x2 meters = in direction x3 by standard x4", which moves the typical x3 place to t= he x4 and places an additional "in direction" place in its stead,= and minli: "x1 is x2 long local distance units with sub-units x3 in s= tandard x4", which has the exact same places as it's brethren, exc= ept that the final two are in reverse order.

Oh, that's another c= ase. As lojbab mentioned this wasn't intentional. Fixing this is a must= . E.g. I can do that now in Russian translation. This fix won't change = the corpus much.
=A0
=A0
Still newbies will have to rem= ember that both for djuno3 and klama3 in order to reach this place you have= to use either {fi} or {te}. So what problems of learnability of the langua= ge would be solved? None.

Incorrect. Consistency of place structure amongst gis= mu families solves the problem of having to remember exceptions to the typi= cal place structure, for the simple reason that there would /be none/.
=A0
Any volunteers?

Well, i wouldn't recommend changing gismu definitions= . Gismu space is undepletable.

Which is not the = point. The reason for the desire to /fix/ the place structure of the incons= istent gismu is because they are, as is, broken. And before you ask how the= y are broken, the answer is: because they are inconsistent.
=A0
We can create alternative gism= u for that.

Which only makes things worse in thi= s scenario. Say we make an "alternative gismu" for mitre. First o= ff, what shape should it have? {mitre} is arguably the best shape for the L= ojban word for "meter". Secondly, how would convince people to st= op using mitre and instead use this new word, when they've already lear= ned {mitre}=3D"meter"? Would it not be simpler to merely say &quo= t;From now on, the x3 place of mitre is the standard place, and the directi= on place is x4.", especially since mitre's x3 and x4 are so seldom= used it wouldn't really affect the corpus, and would make it consisten= t with its brethren, thus making it easier to learn fully?
=A0
Besides, given that many hate = the sounding of gismu ("selsiclu dukse" syndrom and abhorrence of= "la kafkylerfu") and complain that 6-language mixture made gismu= unrecognisable for everyone this can be even advisable.

Personal feelings as to the choice of the shapes of t= he gismu is irrelevant to this issue. It is an issue all its own and should= be discussed separately.
=A0
Anyway you can add me to your team of volunteers. Just show= several examples of how it might look like.

I g= ave two examples above, but this is basically the process in its entirety:<= br>
1) Take the whole of the gismu, possibly including the experimental one= s, and group them into families. Species {badna}, Transportation {klama}, M= ode of Travel {cadzu}, Measurement {mitre}, and Comparatives {barda} are a = few families I can think of off the top of my head. Species might need to b= e split into the kingdoms (animal, plant, etc.) just because of size.

Well, .ui I'm alread= y working on cat= egorisation of gismu.
Your comments might instigate me to revise this categorisation.
<= div class=3D"HOEnZb">

=A0

2) Look at each family, and determine the typical place structure of th= at family: what are the places, in what order do they appear, etc.

3= ) Find the gismu that do not have that place structure, and determine what = the differences are, and if they are justified (for example, {pluta} has a = slightly atypical structure, but it is obviously justified, whereas {mitre}= 's inconsistency is much harder to argue for)

4) Determine what the smallest change would be required to bring the in= consistent gismu in line with the typical one for its family (such as rever= sing the x3 and x4 places of mitre and minli).

5) Determine how this= change would affect the corpus (i.e. instances of usage thus far), and doc= ument this for each gismu. (For example, does reversing the x3 and x4 place= s affect the meaning of any currently existing bridi which have {mitre} in = them? If so, how many are affected, and what would the new meaning be?)
=A0
=A0
stevo


-Robin

--
= http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is = "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"=
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/= rlp/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--bcaec54ee8c84b57ce04d77f5774--