>>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --f46d040715337f39fe04d783bf62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 8:38 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:10:32 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
= On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 7:30 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.= ..@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:13:55 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, = 2013 at 5:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:00:13 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:= 33 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
If I had it to do over again, ever= y gismu with an agent place would
have it as the first place. =A0Every gismu with an audience or second
ag= ent of any type would have it as the second place. =A0There would
probab= ly be several other regularities as well.

Let's assume that
xau =3D BAI tag denoting agent or refe= rence frame.
.iei =3D BAI tag denoting object.
.uai =3D= BAI tag denoting property of the object.

Then we = can rephrase many gismu as

ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e =3D xau mi djun= o .uai lo ka brode .iei ko'i
(the same for {morji} and compan= y)

ko'a kakne lo ka brode =3D xau [je .iei] mi= kakne .uai lo ka brode

ko'a te mukti lo nu brode =3D xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo k= a brode kei te mukti=A0
(May be xau =3D gau or xau =3D ma'i)<= br>
These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed= here if we use {jai}).

For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be= 9;i} tags (if {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the cor= e semantic prime for those gismu seems to be the same.
For sendin= g information another set of BAI might be needed.

=A0
I've been= saying {manci} and {melbi} to my babies *a lot*, and I
*still* have tro= uble remembering that it's {do melbi mi} and {mi
manci do}. =A0GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

This is not the problem. We can just use {selmanci} and forget abou= t {manci}.
{xabju =3D se zdani} is a better example showing redun= dancy.

The problem isn't redundancy, it= 's consistency. =A0
Place structures should be as consistent = as possible. =A0

Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allowed to review this an= d actually do something about it.=A0

Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know wh= ich gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to mak= e it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects th= e corpus.

How is that possible ? I= showed how to "fix" =A0that using BAI, SE and (semiseriously) ex= perimental BAI.

That's not a fix, it's a= workaround. If you don't know the difference, look it up.
=A0

Are there other methods?
=
Even if all agentive gismu had agent in x1 then newbies would still co= mplain that non-agentive gismu break this "rule".

Then they would be wrong, because the whole thing is = about consistency of place structure among similar gismu, not about about m= aking every gismu have the exact same place structure.
=A0

Or e.g. what's common in djuno3 and klama3, vecnu2 and lakne2? Not= hing.

Well, obviously. They're not in the sa= me family.

However, klama, litru, muvdu, pluta, bevri, and farlu are= in the same family: transportation. Note that they also have similar place= structures. In fact, {litru} =3D {klama zi'o zi'o}, {muvdu} =3D {k= lama fu zi'o}, {pluta} =3D {ve klama veka'a loi mokca fo zi'o z= i'o}, {bevri} =3D {zo'e poi lo jgari ku'o klagau faxixa zi'= o} and {farlu} =3D {klani'a fo zi'o zi'o ci'e zo'e}. As= you can see, while there are some variances as to what places there are, a= ll of the /shared/ places are in the same exact order, and usually even in = the "x" place.

Why not using {ka&= #39;a} cmavo instead of all those places?

I don&= #39;t understand the question.

ko'a vofli seka'a ko'e =A0...

ko'= ;a bevri seka'a ko'e ...

why bother changi= ng the order? it's better to ignore those inconsistent places or use jv= ajvo based on {klama}.

Because no it isn't, and what reason could you po= ssibly have to think so?
=A0

As another example, all of the gismu of the measurement family have the exa= ct same place structure: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] by standard = x3", and for non-metric: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] in stan= dard x3 with sub-units x4", /except/ for mitre: "x1 is x2 meters = in direction x3 by standard x4", which moves the typical x3 place to t= he x4 and places an additional "in direction" place in its stead,= and minli: "x1 is x2 long local distance units with sub-units x3 in s= tandard x4", which has the exact same places as it's brethren, exc= ept that the final two are in reverse order.

Oh, that's another c= ase. As lojbab mentioned this wasn't intentional. Fixing this is a must= . E.g. I can do that now in Russian translation. This fix won't change = the corpus much.

=A0
=A0
Still newbies will have to rem= ember that both for djuno3 and klama3 in order to reach this place you have= to use either {fi} or {te}. So what problems of learnability of the langua= ge would be solved? None.

Incorrect. Consistency of place structure amongst gis= mu families solves the problem of having to remember exceptions to the typi= cal place structure, for the simple reason that there would /be none/.
=A0

Any volunteers?

Well, i wouldn't recommend changing gismu definitions= . Gismu space is undepletable.

Which is not the = point. The reason for the desire to /fix/ the place structure of the incons= istent gismu is because they are, as is, broken. And before you ask how the= y are broken, the answer is: because they are inconsistent.
=A0
We can create alternative gism= u for that.

Which only makes things worse in thi= s scenario. Say we make an "alternative gismu" for mitre. First o= ff, what shape should it have? {mitre} is arguably the best shape for the L= ojban word for "meter". Secondly, how would convince people to st= op using mitre and instead use this new word, when they've already lear= ned {mitre}=3D"meter"? Would it not be simpler to merely say &quo= t;From now on, the x3 place of mitre is the standard place, and the directi= on place is x4.", especially since mitre's x3 and x4 are so seldom= used it wouldn't really affect the corpus, and would make it consisten= t with its brethren, thus making it easier to learn fully?
=A0
Besides, given that many hate = the sounding of gismu ("selsiclu dukse" syndrom and abhorrence of= "la kafkylerfu") and complain that 6-language mixture made gismu= unrecognisable for everyone this can be even advisable.

Personal feelings as to the choice of the shapes of t= he gismu is irrelevant to this issue. It is an issue all its own and should= be discussed separately.
=A0

Anyway you can add me to your team of volunteers. Just show= several examples of how it might look like.

I g= ave two examples above, but this is basically the process in its entirety:<= br>
1) Take the whole of the gismu, possibly including the experimental one= s, and group them into families. Species {badna}, Transportation {klama}, M= ode of Travel {cadzu}, Measurement {mitre}, and Comparatives {barda} are a = few families I can think of off the top of my head. Species might need to b= e split into the kingdoms (animal, plant, etc.) just because of size.

Well, .ui I'm alread= y working on cat= egorisation of gismu.

Your comments might instigate me to revise this categorisation.
<= div>

=A0

2) Look at each family, and determine the typical place structure of th= at family: what are the places, in what order do they appear, etc.

3= ) Find the gismu that do not have that place structure, and determine what = the differences are, and if they are justified (for example, {pluta} has a = slightly atypical structure, but it is obviously justified, whereas {mitre}= 's inconsistency is much harder to argue for)

4) Determine what the smallest change would be required to bring the in= consistent gismu in line with the typical one for its family (such as rever= sing the x3 and x4 places of mitre and minli).

5) Determine how this= change would affect the corpus (i.e. instances of usage thus far), and doc= ument this for each gismu. (For example, does reversing the x3 and x4 place= s affect the meaning of any currently existing bridi which have {mitre} in = them? If so, how many are affected, and what would the new meaning be?)
=A0

=A0
stevo

-Robin
--
= http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is = "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false"=
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/= rlp/

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

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=A0
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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=A0

--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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=A0
=A0

--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )