taDA!

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 9, 201= 3 2:26 PM
Subject: Re:= [lojban] Re: Mini-rant: gismu place consistency

On Sat, Mar= 9, 2013 at 8:38 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot= e:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:10:32 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 7:30 AM, la gle= ki <gleki.is...@gmail.co= m> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 6:13:55 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 5:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 4:00:13 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
= On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 4:33 AM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,= la gleki <gleki.is...@g= mail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2011 11:17:26 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:
If I had it to do ove= r again, every gismu with an agent place would
have it as the first place. Every gismu with an audience or secondagent of any type would have it as the second place. There would
= probably be several other regularities as well.

=

Let's assume that
xau =3D BAI tag denoting agent or referenc= e frame.
.iei =3D BAI tag denoting object.
.uai =3D BAI= tag denoting property of the object.

Then we can = rephrase many gismu as

ko'a djuno lo du'u ko'e brode kei ko'e =3D xau mi djuno .uai lo ka bro= de .iei ko'i
(the same for {morji} and company)

ko'a kakne lo ka brode =3D xau [je .iei] mi kakne .uai lo ka brode<= /div>
ko'a te mukti lo nu brode =3D xau ko'a .iei ko'a .uai lo ka brode kei = te mukti
(May be xau =3D gau or xau =3D ma'i)
These tags can replace FA (a separate set of SE is not needed here if we u= se {jai}).

For {vecnu, dunda, cpacu} and {benji} we can use {be'i}= tags (if {benji} is about sending objects, not information) as the core se= mantic prime for those gismu seems to be the same.
For sending in= formation another set of BAI might be needed.

Agreed. I will be very happy when we're allo= wed to review this and actually do something about it.

Speaking of, I do know that one thing that will be needed is to know wh= ich gismu have inconsistent structure, what would need to be changed to mak= e it consistent with its "family", and how that change affects the corpus.<= /div>

How is that possible ? I= showed how to "fix" that using BAI, SE and (semiseriously) experimen= tal BAI.

That's not a fix, it's a workaround. If= you don't know the difference, look it up.

Are there othe= r methods?
Even if all agentive gismu had agent in x1 then newbie= s would still complain that non-agentive gismu break this "rule".

Then they would be wrong, because the whole thing is = about consistency of place structure among similar gismu, not about about m= aking every gismu have the exact same place structure.

Or e.g. what's common in djuno3 and klama3, vecnu2 and lakne2? Nothing= .

Well, obviously. They're not in the same famil= y.

However, klama, litru, muvdu, pluta, bevri, and farlu are in the = same family: transportation. Note that they also have similar place structu= res. In fact, {litru} =3D {klama zi'o zi'o}, {muvdu} =3D {klama fu zi'o}, {= pluta} =3D {ve klama veka'a loi mokca fo zi'o zi'o}, {bevri} =3D {zo'e poi = lo jgari ku'o klagau faxixa zi'o} and {farlu} =3D {klani'a fo zi'o zi'o ci'= e zo'e}. As you can see, while there are some variances as to what places t= here are, all of the /shared/ places are in the same exact order, and usual= ly even in the "x" place.

Why not using {ka'= a} cmavo instead of all those places?

I don't un= derstand the question.

ko'a vofli seka'a ko'e ...

ko'a bevri seka= 'a ko'e ...

why bother changing the order? it's be= tter to ignore those inconsistent places or use jvajvo based on {klama}.

Because no it isn't, and what reason could you possib= ly have to think so?

As another example, all of the gismu of the measurement family have the exa= ct same place structure: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] by standard x3", = and for non-metric: "x1 is x2 [units of measurement] in standard x3 with su= b-units x4", /except/ for mitre: "x1 is x2 meters in direction x3 by standa= rd x4", which moves the typical x3 place to the x4 and places an additional= "in direction" place in its stead, and minli: "x1 is x2 long local distanc= e units with sub-units x3 in standard x4", which has the exact same places = as it's brethren, except that the final two are in reverse order.

Oh, that's another case.= As lojbab mentioned this wasn't intentional. Fixing this is a must. E.g. I= can do that now in Russian translation. This fix won't change the corpus m= uch.

Still newbies = will have to remember that both for djuno3 and klama3 in order to reach thi= s place you have to use either {fi} or {te}. So what problems of learnabili= ty of the language would be solved? None.

Incorrect. Consistency of place structure amongst gis= mu families solves the problem of having to remember exceptions to the typi= cal place structure, for the simple reason that there would /be none/.

Any volunteers?

Well, i wouldn't recommend changing gismu def= initions. Gismu space is undepletable.

Which is = not the point. The reason for the desire to /fix/ the place structure of th= e inconsistent gismu is because they are, as is, broken. And before you ask= how they are broken, the answer is: because they are inconsistent.

We can create = alternative gismu for that.

Which only makes thi= ngs worse in this scenario. Say we make an "alternative gismu" for mitre. F= irst off, what shape should it have? {mitre} is arguably the best shape for= the Lojban word for "meter". Secondly, how would convince people to stop u= sing mitre and instead use this new word, when they've already learned {mit= re}=3D"meter"? Would it not be simpler to merely say "From now on, the x3 p= lace of mitre is the standard place, and the direction place is x4.", espec= ially since mitre's x3 and x4 are so seldom used it wouldn't really affect = the corpus, and would make it consistent with its brethren, thus making it = easier to learn fully?

Besides, given= that many hate the sounding of gismu ("selsiclu dukse" syndrom and abhorre= nce of "la kafkylerfu") and complain that 6-language mixture made gismu unr= ecognisable for everyone this can be even advisable.

Personal feelings as to the choice of the shapes of t= he gismu is irrelevant to this issue. It is an issue all its own and should= be discussed separately.

Anyway you can add me to your team of volunteers. Just show= several examples of how it might look like.

I g= ave two examples above, but this is basically the process in its entirety:<= br>
1) Take the whole of the gismu, possibly including the experimental one= s, and group them into families. Species {badna}, Transportation {klama}, M= ode of Travel {cadzu}, Measurement {mitre}, and Comparatives {barda} are a = few families I can think of off the top of my head. Species might need to b= e split into the kingdoms (animal, plant, etc.) just because of size.

Well, .ui I'm already worki= ng on categorisation of gismu.

Your comments might instigate me to revise this categorisation.
<= div>

2) Look at each family, and determine the typical place structure of th= at family: what are the places, in what order do they appear, etc.

3= ) Find the gismu that do not have that place structure, and determine what = the differences are, and if they are justified (for example, {pluta} has a = slightly atypical structure, but it is obviously justified, whereas {mitre}= 's inconsistency is much harder to argue for)

4) Determine what the smallest change would be required to bring the in= consistent gismu in line with the typical one for its family (such as rever= sing the x3 and x4 places of mitre and minli).

5) Determine how this= change would affect the corpus (i.e. instances of usage thus far), and doc= ument this for each gismu. (For example, does reversing the x3 and x4 place= s affect the meaning of any currently existing bridi which have {mitre} in = them? If so, how many are affected, and what would the new meaning be?)

stevo

-Robin
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