Received: from mail-we0-f185.google.com ([74.125.82.185]:43985) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UJ97r-00042S-Dr; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:58 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f185.google.com with SMTP id z2sf760461wey.22 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=8Tv8XFDOhQbr+reyTOhHJ7656O3Y9TOexSAxsDWnQXA=; b=ektVdZ/Zx9WdepDEacA2apT2ztoTBswwt8OOkC15DdAi8HdKIpXNlWLDteLvMS6JMt q9q77+zbVJuXnJuQC5y4SM6+mSraCq6AdF3rmXQAugaBT4woVJNt7GOLMQF81kA6G+ip Cv9zbq/4JcBrnRLQ9fdEPNhe3PXfCpi/8dtA01qQNtcLjNHhSqWGd/wyVNdyghEdRYc9 xw4Qu1XQCvEb+ZyEnUyoemel2o0xhMVR9Sw7id0bvVL/1RVa0+BmcvyTlbe6mJMGgFY/ ExKbI3koOVBXCv3ChRW1Sy1Y9RcfXZPs04mIKZ8d4ZSe2xlFe037z/IV+Acp/K2iNRYy QSGw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=8Tv8XFDOhQbr+reyTOhHJ7656O3Y9TOexSAxsDWnQXA=; b=Nxmx2FNpl2Mav8yuJcREHs3AZC2ojSOHW+yntUFA7Z0kq/dpqmSXNl59/Vt9evvKaW NjpjDdEnIkxL3lNWjM8F9pvmYrm3ZgImczAFCkckhMq33huUnBgSKNP/oT/TzwTdNEbN PrcrKu6DjcVYWZ4rynoe+8NWZVAJjFWK6mZ0uMHWKZiGJvhDSZjcp9Lq5rDRqfezSPOG gJMNbMuoDPwqvZ4hJMY1pbM/vi2qM8izvC3dnQaSRmV8QMj21P7AE/1oqRh9jhr3EZKx yQ5uK4TteshXe0mGhzs5F6BTZON7lrM0guKLL+KjBdbEno42wrH9VDyvZaabyIkbmjqR kZ6g== X-Received: by 10.180.73.10 with SMTP id h10mr1446460wiv.0.1363986219217; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.99.105 with SMTP id ep9ls889147wib.1.canary; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.205.113.193 with SMTP id ex1mr289107bkc.5.1363986218451; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c03::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s1si336403bkt.3.2013.03.22.14.03.38 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::232; Received: by mail-la0-x232.google.com with SMTP id ec20so8154065lab.37 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.8.164 with SMTP id s4mr1791165lba.106.1363986218234; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.43.165 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2013 14:03:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1363881306.5055.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 17:03:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Noun-ness of {vindu} To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe293c04402504d889ca57 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e0cb4efe293c04402504d889ca57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 22 March 2013 10:57, Adam Lopresto wrote: > Making a word usable for more situations doesn't necessarily make it more > useful. It just changes the meaning, rather drastically. There may be a > place for the predicate you're looking for, but {vindu} has a short, simple > meaning. I can say {.e'unai vindu} and that says all you need to say. With > your "x1 is actively affecting the biochemistry of x2 with effects x3" > meaning, we'd need to graft on a {xlali} and a {kakne} to get there. > > Or let vagueness do the work for you, which is what we typically do. All past uses of {vindu} can be understood from context as have "bad" in the vindu3 and having implicit ka'e. This change would not break usage and would provide with a word that is so ridiculously more useful. At last, we can make a work for "drunk" in the chemical sense, rather than {xalbebna}, which isn't even jvajvo. la xalbo cu cusku di'e > If you want to say that someone is actually experiencing the poison, use > {bilma}. I do think there's room for the symptoms in vindu3, though. But I > don't want to see the word broadened to such a point that it could mean > anything, but to actually mean anything specific, you'd need a paragraph. > You seem to contradict yourself here. To say that someone is actually experiencing the poison, we need a paragraph, if we follow your suggestion of using {bilma}. Anyway, "a paragraph" is such a huge exaggeration of what this change would do. Rather than make a word so unnecessarily specific such as vindu as it is now, making it broader will allow for more expressivity. .i la stivos cu cusku di'e Assuming a new word is necessary for the meaning desired, it's always better to create a new word, e.g., vi'indu, and let the old stand as is. Then if the new word is more useful and used more often, then the old word will fade away. I am all in favor of small changes, such as making argument places consistent, which I regard as a fix, but changing "vindu" in the way described is not a fix, but a general change to a word that's not broken. Making an entirely new word, such as a zi'evla, defeats the purpose of even having such broad words. Broad words are great *for lujvo*, which are a mess to produce out of anything that doesn't have a rafsi, namely zi'evla. Also, context is everything, as we time and time again prove by even *speaking* in #lojban. *Precise* words should be zi'evla, as compounding them further becomes less interesting as their precision increases. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e0cb4efe293c04402504d889ca57 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22 March 2013 10:57, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>= wrote:
Making a word usable for more situations doesn't neces= sarily make it more useful. It just changes the meaning, rather drastically= . There may be a place for the predicate you're looking for, but {vindu= } has a short, simple meaning. I can say {.e'unai vindu} and that says = all you need to say. With your "x1 is actively affecting the biochemis= try of x2 with effects x3" meaning, we'd need to graft on a {xlali= } and a {kakne} to get there.


Or let vagueness do the work for= you, which is what we typically do. All past uses of {vindu} can be unders= tood from context as have "bad" in the vindu3 and having implicit= ka'e. This change would not break usage and would provide with a word = that is so ridiculously more useful. At last, we can make a work for "= drunk" in the chemical sense, rather than {xalbebna}, which isn't = even jvajvo.
=A0
la xalbo cu cusku di'e
If you want to say that someone is actually experie= ncing the poison, use {bilma}. I do think there's room for the symptoms= in vindu3, though. But I don't want to see the word broadened to such = a point that it could mean anything, but to actually mean anything specific= , you'd need a paragraph.

You seem to contradict yourself here. To s= ay that someone is actually experiencing the poison, we need a paragraph, i= f we follow your suggestion of using {bilma}. Anyway, =A0"a paragraph&= quot; is such a huge exaggeration of what this change would do. Rather than= make a word so unnecessarily specific such as vindu as it is now, making i= t broader will allow for more expressivity.

.i la stivos cu cusku di'e
Assuming a new word is necessary for the= meaning desired, it's always better to create a new word, e.g., vi'= ;indu, and let the old stand as is. Then if the new word is more useful and= used more often, then the old word will fade away.=A0
I am all in fav= or of small changes, such as making argument places consistent, which I reg= ard as a fix, but changing "vindu" in the way described is not a = fix, but a general change to a word that's not broken.=A0=A0

Making an entirely new word, such as a zi'evla, def= eats the purpose of even having such broad words. Broad words are great *fo= r lujvo*, which are a mess to produce out of anything that doesn't have= a rafsi, namely zi'evla. Also, context is everything, as we time and t= ime again prove by even *speaking* in #lojban.=A0

*Precise* words should be zi'evla, as compounding t= hem further becomes less interesting as their precision increases.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--e0cb4efe293c04402504d889ca57--