Received: from mail-oa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.219.58]:55453) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UJnpl-0003VT-0v; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:32:01 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id j6sf1983639oag.13 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:31:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2mhkXiB2FWym03JiaXk+qdIn09IigdR4YTQ2rqgwz8A=; b=NHASegp+33Mz+jWgOUb4c49/0T3nKWf3QWjEnnl3s7rwBuUhOi82bpfSFYZJJ8M/wY 7AJjR2HSvnvI0ZG+xiWF1+Skc/JSb4Igd7R60eE1MmuFdZHJK6R275BPss2UPgdKxMPP rUcEYfh3mp5hyYKuiREIKOT+2+zJVDAwzpullMvgtemF79v6CWMMEM9IkLcYlml8HneS lVGKM3FuRr9zJizbyumRbAxuu3aNxrTkPryQfiuA0LfueoJyFihSBF8HfoIBkoaSYFCb xPbDW3dbr5rGWh+kxMvgYjZqe8I+vXmS1Md8494HuSrr6ELolGLMb/l1cX+eqqeDfINo lbKw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2mhkXiB2FWym03JiaXk+qdIn09IigdR4YTQ2rqgwz8A=; b=ixyHqfnELQfDN5gDfbX4pykuxc47XRj5G6cER9+Kw0xaB6jikdCYQHgf68o0+GWkij e997wZT0zlyhVwAAb+9XFvCU7HxrIik8T523Sz+NtW/e/v4aY7dpOeWn51eUxMt6J5Do aRhPscCNflmz6EngJFJN98nACEoDyp7qlg5+K+cU1PnxBMpoWh82kSs6NSvdqIunp5KJ qWmxbmY3kqTJ0zdCkJv9Bv1vg+jG71Xo1Nj196w1WW8JgJZAEV6SeMeuH86R0htoa+3P FnTro2Z+jRCFK5e9FBMa2omwXFsZ6sVKfxo8tgSHZgFBt+zdyDGvMXW+2xfizd9kUbM0 ceWA== X-Received: by 10.49.104.144 with SMTP id ge16mr78262qeb.19.1364142702368; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.50.169 with SMTP id d9ls1893708qeo.85.gmail; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.127.200 with SMTP id ni8mr262033qeb.42.1364142701900; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: [lojban] Re: No gismu for Difference MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_66_3054173.1364142701375" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_66_3054173.1364142701375 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:15:11 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > > I'm nearly certain this has been remarked on in the past, but there=20 > appears to be no gismu for "difference" in the mathematical sense. This i= s=20 > pretty inconsistent, as there're gismu for the other three basic=20 > mathematical operators, namely {sumji}, {pilji}, and {dilcu}, for sum,=20 > product, and quotient, respectively. > > As it stands, there're a few non-gismu solutions, such as {selsumji}.=20 > Indeed, cleverly rearranging the places of a sum produces a difference in= =20 > much the same way as doing so to the places for a product produces a=20 > quotient. Why, then, should {dilcu} and not exist? > > If we consider that {vu'u}, the mekso subtraction operator, is based on= =20 > {vimcu}, we can try to make a subtraction selbri from it. First, we need = to=20 > remove the agent with zil-, then we need to convert the (thus) x3 with=20 > ter-: {terzilvi'u}. > > {terzilvi'u} has one obvious problem though: semantically, it isn't purel= y=20 > mathematical. The other three are clearly definitely mathematical, wherea= s=20 > {vimcu} is used for any partial removal of something. "Getting a haircut"= =20 > is phrased in terms of {vimcu}. > > It seems like it'd add consistency if a gismu were simply made up for thi= s=20 > rather than try to find other solutions. I (na=C3=AFvely) suggest {subja}= , with=20 > -sub- from English & romlang "subtract" and -ja- from Mandarin "ji=C7=8En= ". > .ienai when jian3 was chosen for {jdika} it was nearly okay. but "jian3"=20 for sure should be converted to lojban as "dzian" or "dian". however, you= =20 chose {ja} which in Mandarin will be "ra". So whats the advantage of=20 importing mnemonics that wont work at all? Next, why you choose the gloss "to subtract". Whats the proposed definition= ? x1 is a difference/result of subtraction of x3 from x2 ? Then the glossword should be "difference" Bulgarian: =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BB=D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B0 (bg) f Czech: rozd=C3=ADl (cs) m Danish: differens (da) c Dutch: verschil (nl) n Esperanto: diferenco Finnish: erotus (fi) French: diff=C3=A9rence (fr) f German: Differenz (de) f Hebrew: =D7=94=D7=A4=D7=A8=D7=A9 (hefresh) m Indonesian: selisih Italian: differenza (it) f Japanese: =E5=B7=AE (=E3=81=95, sa) Persian: =D8=A7=D8=AE=D8=AA=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=81 (fa) (extel=C3=A2f), =D8=AA= =D9=81=D8=A7=D8=B6=D9=84 (fa) (taf=C3=A2zol) Polish: r=C3=B3=C5=BCnica (pl) f Romanian: diferen=C8=9B=C4=83 (ro) f Russian: =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C (ru) (r=C3=A1znos= t=E2=80=99) f, =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0 (ru) (r=C3=A1znit= sa) f Slovene: razlika (sl) f Spanish: diferencia (es) f Swedish: differens (sv) c, skillnad (sv) c Telugu: =E0=B0=AD=E0=B1=87=E0=B0=A6=E0=B0=AE=E0=B1=81 (bhaedamu) As for Mandarin it is cha1shu4 Of course we can play with the sounds a bit but in order to get a better= =20 mnemonic we have to choose either chinese or romance etymology. So I suggest either {tcacu}/{tcaco} (.uinaisai it clashes with {tcaci}) or= =20 {difro} (final -o is normal for mekso gismu). However, selsumji seems fine to me. But if you do really want to add it to= =20 jvs please consider that jian3 is not suitable. > subja =3D x1 is the difference, x2 minus x3 > > If there were other suggestions for a potential gismu for this in the=20 > past, I'd like to know them. If there were none, I'll probably add this t= o=20 > jbovlaste within a few days. > > .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_66_3054173.1364142701375 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday, March 24, 2013 6:15:11 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:I'm nearly certain this has been remarked= on in the past, but there appears to be no gismu for "difference" in the m= athematical sense. This is pretty inconsistent, as there're gismu for the o= ther three basic mathematical operators, namely {sumji}, {pilji}, and {dilc= u}, for sum, product, and quotient, respectively.

As it stands, there're a few non-gismu solutions, such as {s= elsumji}. Indeed, cleverly rearranging the places of a sum produces a diffe= rence in much the same way as doing so to the places for a product produces= a quotient. Why, then, should {dilcu} and not <difference> exist?

If we consider that {vu'u}, the mekso subtraction opera= tor, is based on {vimcu}, we can try to make a subtraction selbri from it. = First, we need to remove the agent with zil-, then we need to convert the (= thus) x3 with ter-: {terzilvi'u}.

{terzilvi'u} has one obvious problem though: semantical= ly, it isn't purely mathematical. The other three are clearly definitely ma= thematical, whereas {vimcu} is used for any partial removal of something. "= Getting a haircut" is phrased in terms of {vimcu}.

It seems like it'd add consistency if a gismu were simp= ly made up for this rather than try to find other solutions. I (na=C3=AFvel= y) suggest {subja}, with -sub- from English & romlang "subtract" and -j= a- from Mandarin "ji=C7=8En".

.ienai when jian3 was chosen fo= r {jdika} it was nearly okay. but "jian3" for sure should be converted to l= ojban as "dzian" or "dian". however, you chose {ja} which in Mandarin will = be "ra". So whats the advantage of importing mnemonics that wont work at al= l?

Next, why you choose the gloss "to subtract". W= hats the proposed definition?
x1 is a difference/result of subtra= ction of x3 from x2 ?

Then the glossword should be= "difference"

Bulgarian: =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7= =D0=BB=D0=B8=D0=BA=D0=B0 (bg) f
Czech: rozd=C3=ADl (cs) m
Danish: differens (da) c
Dutch: verschil (nl) n
Espe= ranto: diferenco
Finnish: erotus (fi)
French: diff=C3= =A9rence (fr) f
German: Differenz (de) f
Hebrew: =D7=94= =D7=A4=D7=A8=D7=A9 (hefresh) m
Indonesian: selisih
Ital= ian: differenza (it) f
Japanese: =E5=B7=AE (=E3=81=95, sa)
<= div>Persian: =D8=A7=D8=AE=D8=AA=D9=84=D8=A7=D9=81 (fa) (extel=C3=A2f), =D8= =AA=D9=81=D8=A7=D8=B6=D9=84 (fa) (taf=C3=A2zol)
Polish: r=C3=B3= =C5=BCnica (pl) f
Romanian: diferen=C8=9B=C4=83 (ro) f
= Russian: =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BD=D0=BE=D1=81=D1=82=D1=8C (ru) (r=C3=A1znos= t=E2=80=99) f, =D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B7=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0 (ru) (r=C3=A1znit= sa) f
Slovene: razlika (sl) f
Spanish: diferencia (es) = f
Swedish: differens (sv) c, skillnad (sv) c
Telugu: = =E0=B0=AD=E0=B1=87=E0=B0=A6=E0=B0=AE=E0=B1=81 (bhaedamu)
As for Mandarin it is cha1shu4

Of cou= rse we can play with  the sounds a bit but in order to get a better mn= emonic we have to choose either chinese or romance etymology.
So = I suggest either {tcacu}/{tcaco} (.uinaisai it clashes with {tcaci}) or {di= fro} (final -o is normal for mekso gismu).

However= , selsumji seems fine to me. But if you do really want to add it to jvs ple= ase consider that jian3 is not suitable.


subja =3D x1 is the difference, x2 minus x3
<= br>
If there were other suggestions for a potential gismu for thi= s in the past, I'd like to know them. If there were none, I'll probably add= this to jbovlaste within a few days.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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