Received: from mail-pa0-f64.google.com ([209.85.220.64]:36192) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UJvNj-0006lE-N7; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:31 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f64.google.com with SMTP id fb1sf589348pad.19 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=4ahaKy04gkEIIaTVmKSKJ2C1vWcz2ee0r0lNmc9O9bQ=; b=iqGdI4aLOPhe+Xl44lQkb0rtbIPi+l+INjDl01th3ww9tf5Oc8zHsead2wJASdzOOg dKjZUuLDcCcAWnc/yDPs2PhLGRc2trfjwTXyC98/QYh590IQ6AquRQ6qXNN9me4Bulju g58JabfcgvgCVCPRUet6suxblff/Rje4HSApcO445XZ78Tq+l3LNcQ2aj43Z3z8mn903 amoDKRnflcHmwkMLg2JS7XbEEs/VxRfeeJT3gvI4E6xGH2w/ZtHw3SlnPLv6bdOnaDLv /RY4wfO8Bn4214H5bd+OoS6UDGZjsBJ62eSsk9Px4WVt97iQEVHA+B+a5nCs48FtHGTR t2lg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=4ahaKy04gkEIIaTVmKSKJ2C1vWcz2ee0r0lNmc9O9bQ=; b=0qofuPQ93aBNHh4JxW3MMl+u4TULDZiYG6ljLzdCijRzDtGyb+OFusAN29p8mAHEUK UCsW2L9C+dNVZjxW0cSfa4OCYBVMiYYWohmyUuC34JlqQvTM/wEi4AqcXrczQaMO7emT L/91NVMV0D8SQKgBcYOvv5NTHuw/RjdnMRqiRUt+n3r1XO7+1pdR4qCZYCyoOW5bxEEO d9XKr5vG9ZuVKMQcprjlaLZ0HH9tlha06ndW+OLMzS5U9DlqjFv4XXhHMh5fPrFmaaWD DGec6l1YEIP8Ylldi+k11uqGa43TAQpOpXiKt7ALxjYWybga1hfN8JyFX1ac7uLjzBB7 a25Q== X-Received: by 10.50.188.231 with SMTP id gd7mr2110755igc.9.1364171716413; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.209.1 with SMTP id mi1ls4877284igc.30.canary; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.170.10 with SMTP id ai10mr13458075igc.6.1364171715072; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id mk7si1664012igc.0.2013.03.24.17.35.15 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232; Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wd20so5397625obb.23 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.60.96.200 with SMTP id du8mr4377584oeb.69.1364171714783; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:35:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.127.228 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:34:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <514F1132.8020502@gmx.de> <514F1BB9.2070007@gmx.de> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 20:34:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] what {me lo broda ku} means and why not allow {selbri NOI} To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01184d7478f21b04d8b4fae6 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e01184d7478f21b04d8b4fae6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It seems like this thread is reinventing latro'a's and my {no'oi}, {po'oi}, and other fancylojban stuff. In brief, {me'ei} is a LE that gets the pure ka function of the selbri. {me'ei broda} == {lo ka ce'u broda ce'u ...}, with the entire place structure being {ce'u}. From {me'ei}, it became possible to define {no'oi} and {po'oi} (both in selma'o NOhOI) as binding {ke'a} referring to {me'ei }. Thus, {broda NOhOI ke'a brode} has {ke'a} referring to {me'ei broda}. In order to reuse {ke'a} as a true selbri, it became necessary to introduce {me'au}, the inverse operation of {me'ei}, which converts a sumti into a true selbri. {me'au} is in ME. e.g. {.i ko'a ko'e me'au lo ka ce'u broda ce'u} == {.i ko'a ko'e broda}. In order to demonstrate no'oi, I'll reuse examples already given in this thread: {do sanga noi mi na co'e} -> {.i do sanga no'oi mi na me'au ke'a} : "You sing, which I don't." do sanga noi ro da djica lo nu da co'e -> {.i do sanga no'oi ro da djica lo nu da me'au ke'a} "You sing, which everybody wants to do". {po'oi}, on the other hand, is used basically only on the bu'a-series and on {mo}, because otherwise, it doesn't make sense to restrict the possible referents of a selbri; ordinary selbri only ever really refer to the relationship they describe. As with ordinary relative clauses, {ke'a} can be implicit and in a deeply nested location. e.g. .i do mi cinba no'oi mi se jungau so'i da lo du'u ke'a pluka lo'e prenu "You kiss me, which (kissing) I have been told is enjoyable to the average person." .i mi'e la tsani mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e01184d7478f21b04d8b4fae6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems like this thread is reinventing latro'a's and my {no'o= i}, {po'oi}, and other fancylojban stuff.=A0

In brie= f, {me'ei} is a LE that gets the pure ka function of the selbri. {me= 9;ei broda} =3D=3D {lo ka ce'u broda ce'u ...}, with the entire pla= ce structure being {ce'u}. From {me'ei}, it became possible to defi= ne {no'oi} and {po'oi} (both in selma'o NOhOI) as binding {ke&#= 39;a} referring to {me'ei <the selbri to which the NOhOI is attached= >}. Thus, {broda NOhOI ke'a brode} has {ke'a} referring to {me&#= 39;ei broda}.

In order to reuse {ke'a} as a true selbri, it becam= e necessary to introduce {me'au}, the inverse operation of {me'ei},= which converts a sumti into a true selbri. {me'au} is in ME.=A0

e.g. {.i ko'a ko'e me'au lo ka ce'u bro= da ce'u} =3D=3D {.i ko'a ko'e broda}.

= In order to demonstrate no'oi, I'll reuse examples already given in= this thread:

{do sanga noi mi na = co'e} -> {.i do sanga no'oi mi na me'au ke'a} :=A0"You sing, which I don't."= ;

do sanga noi ro da djica lo nu da co'e -> {.= i do sanga no'oi ro da djica lo nu da me'au ke'a} "You sin= g, which everybody wants to do".

{po'oi}, on the other hand, is used basically o= nly on the bu'a-series and on {mo}, because otherwise, it doesn't m= ake sense to restrict the possible referents of a selbri; ordinary selbri o= nly ever really refer to the relationship they describe.

As with ordinary relative clauses, {ke'a} can b= e implicit and in a deeply nested location.

e.g. .i do mi cinba no'oi mi se jungau so'i= da lo du'u ke'a pluka lo'e prenu "You kiss me, which (kis= sing) I have been told is enjoyable to the average person."

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o


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