Received: from mail-ob0-f186.google.com ([209.85.214.186]:61217)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDBPJRUZSQARB5GCX6FAKGQECPEDXII@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1UK01T-00087n-OV; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:52 -0700
Received: by mail-ob0-f186.google.com with SMTP id gq1sf2098114obb.3
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version
         :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=qeBiuXxP3SSSCauwYvh9NVPPubLE+BvVp48SIsq7r7A=;
        b=oCa8jIheitnKBK/5wM2ytpEY5q3OmhRCtWRuaO62gg7ehwlpw2hiUGn0/EY0GLImtL
         D8qgTAG1d/QgrX5ngftPPKjgybJl+Y/97e1oMjWliG+5qwWbB1LEexWuHCBr1mpedLLS
         GQNyjdhGPGeSe9jpIYiGZTHXuv1ZnPJEPqTyhZrycamn5l45Wvao0qL7UQeZuVjSn2QP
         xylPRVjw08VQvetg/CLMrQtG1osUhR+tReRNP+rbliqBsZrIkoFHG3Vu/H7ioiUZVNnc
         5o6ZYGaRSvXBDlOGo4jeXyLsOS0e5nr4qqR6E9gchweOt6WCkkHCtEykVDRnA+GYtVFo
         5FEQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
        h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:mime-version
         :x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type;
        bh=qeBiuXxP3SSSCauwYvh9NVPPubLE+BvVp48SIsq7r7A=;
        b=g9T37T6nev8gPWJmnPf77M8eMWhLclx6dFVmJomMvUNjVuVpL/5MRY8p7PqUIbwc5L
         xhfgUIdV8rbihT1OkfYvlZB8zMCyybO2AwJMAY1Mt3QSPAJ784Cwq7WYSkNpV5h5py/z
         SE68puwVhpg5f3hsaoW36sH0yRJhPi0WvZgELmJvKYiUmkTd+RxweRTdntzMmZ6Jrcpn
         Ek/LjbnEYKCpjfniOCzT2Y7fEbzoTdL30QQVH5lRkznB3VCrYpsFOX+/HfduCvRyDZSZ
         0gQ6nhINZruO+VNYbilkNVWJr7WQHEBIBPadvTX9O2hqZELvke2TXnKuD9WSzuPHpXWQ
         BCKQ==
X-Received: by 10.50.170.68 with SMTP id ak4mr2179576igc.1.1364189557133;
        Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.159.133 with SMTP id xc5ls4988852igb.3.canary; Sun, 24 Mar
 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.42.22.75 with SMTP id n11mr2580226icb.19.1364189556611;
        Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ia0-x236.google.com (mail-ia0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j17si1759656iga.2.2013.03.24.22.32.36
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236;
Received: by mail-ia0-f182.google.com with SMTP id u8so5160094iag.41
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.50.87.2 with SMTP id t2mr6905809igz.19.1364189556481; Sun,
 24 Mar 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.231.237.84 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <d7d2a2d2-1524-4635-8786-e269facc8063@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAOQ8VDXtkU=NnZsr-jrMPBzO-V8LPfYHeOX4kk=aiORSP4uM7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc400251-be4b-4464-ac6a-882f17dc5a01@googlegroups.com>
	<CAO7tK2dWSF-raojc2VzOQ9TZiFECeiXEhXH-qKNmvtVGPq4sNw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2duGfZxy1WKY7xqaNYxOfw3LD80_TB9n3gVkztjO+8eQA@mail.gmail.com>
	<78563624-9255-41a0-b09c-fb9cd7c03d33@googlegroups.com>
	<CA+gZtgJoE=cM6NB8mot6g9in6cwmE8fQBt0jou1JSjFPVPH1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHiXx=MjJVJ9_xG_auJ1kyFkE4xW3z=-83G4bOO6+=thH32vwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<d7d2a2d2-1524-4635-8786-e269facc8063@googlegroups.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 01:32:36 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgJDiH4EZfRNYPricm8FFk=gS3bgwQyJMbBnbUm-X9HbEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: No gismu for Difference
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com;       dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0111b164eba41c04d8b9216b
X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--089e0111b164eba41c04d8b9216b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The problem is that arithmetic is supposed to abstract physical situations.
Addition abstracts the merging of groups, while subtraction abstracts the
removal of a subgroup from a group. In other words, + panra jmina, - panra
vimcu. From this standpoint "6=3D8-2" is essentially "if you take away 2 fr=
om
8 you get 6". {selsumji} fi'o tarmi ku is thinking of "6=3D8-2" as somethin=
g
like "if you put 2 back in 6, you would get 8", which is rather convoluted.
It's truth-functionally the same, but the character of the description
feels different.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:02 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wrote=
:

>
>
> On Monday, March 25, 2013 5:50:26 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>> Indeed, this has been something that has nagged at the back of my mind
>>> since I started studying the language; there are fairly few words which=
 are
>>> sufficiently similar to their source language counterparts to help a
>>> speaker of a source language learn the language more easily.
>>
>>
>> This is why I say the vocabulary is equally d=EDfficult for everybody. T=
he
>> memory hooks aren't numerous for any given language, and they're not
>> consistent enough to make them useful to learn. Totally ad hoc words cou=
ld
>> hardly be more difficult to learn than what we have.
>>
>
> This algorithm originated in the first SciAm paper by JCB. He claimed the
> existence of global etymology. *sei mi morji *Lojban doesnt have any
> goals to prove the existence of such thing. The only reason to apply the
> algorithm is mnemonics. Otherwise Lojban is completely apriori.
>
> Given that the number of speakers of Romance languages exceed the number
> of Chinese speakers I suggest {difro} or similar gismu once again.
>
> However, what I'd like more is not to add more gismu but instead to remov=
e
> some of the existing. The adoption of {selsumji}=3D"difference" will teac=
h
> newbies "predicate reasoning". If a person can cope with rearranging sumt=
i
> places and knows the basic vocabulary then 'ey is already a good speaker =
of
> Lojban.
>
>
>
>>
>>> The stated purpose of the algorithm doesn't seem like it was really
>>> achieved, pe'i. Not that that's a bad thing, as it still provides a sou=
rce
>>> of an a priori vocabulary.
>>>
>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.



--089e0111b164eba41c04d8b9216b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The problem is that arithmetic is supposed to abstract physical situations.=
 Addition abstracts the merging of groups, while subtraction abstracts the =
removal of a subgroup from a group. In other words, + panra jmina, - panra =
vimcu. From this standpoint &quot;6=3D8-2&quot; is essentially &quot;if you=
 take away 2 from 8 you get 6&quot;. {selsumji} fi&#39;o tarmi ku is thinki=
ng of &quot;6=3D8-2&quot; as something like &quot;if you put 2 back in 6, y=
ou would get 8&quot;, which is rather convoluted. It&#39;s truth-functional=
ly the same, but the character of the description feels different.<div>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:02 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.nam=
e@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br>On Monday, March 25, 2013 5:50:26 AM=
 UTC+4, stevo wrote:<div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Joh=
nson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>blindb...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Indeed, this has been something that has nagged at the back of my mind sinc=
e I started studying the language; there are fairly few words which are suf=
ficiently similar to their source language counterparts to help a speaker o=
f a source language learn the language more easily. </blockquote>


<div><br></div><div>This is why I say the vocabulary is equally d=EDfficult=
 for everybody. The memory hooks aren&#39;t numerous for any given language=
, and they&#39;re not consistent enough to make them useful to learn. Total=
ly ad hoc words could hardly be more difficult to learn than what we have.=
=A0</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>This algorithm originated in t=
he first SciAm paper by JCB. He claimed the existence of global etymology. =
<i>sei mi morji </i>Lojban doesnt have any goals to prove the existence of =
such thing. The only reason to apply the algorithm is mnemonics. Otherwise =
Lojban is completely apriori.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Given that the number of speakers of Romance languages =
exceed the number of Chinese speakers I suggest {difro} or similar gismu on=
ce again.</div><div><br></div><div>However, what I&#39;d like more is not t=
o add more gismu but instead to remove some of the existing. The adoption o=
f {selsumji}=3D&quot;difference&quot; will teach newbies &quot;predicate re=
asoning&quot;. If a person can cope with rearranging sumti places and knows=
 the basic vocabulary then &#39;ey is already a good speaker of Lojban.</di=
v>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The stated purpose of the algorithm doesn&#39;t seem like it was really ach=
ieved, pe&#39;i. Not that that&#39;s a bad thing, as it still provides a so=
urce of an a priori vocabulary.<div>


<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<div><div><br><br></div></di=
v></div></blockquote></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--089e0111b164eba41c04d8b9216b--