Received: from mail-ye0-f192.google.com ([209.85.213.192]:61874) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UKru4-0004T8-Bl; Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:55 -0700 Received: by mail-ye0-f192.google.com with SMTP id r11sf916527yen.19 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Nrb83lsbHu4a+sHTEqM3QioIMMLHNL3IY13NidlhSVQ=; b=UMYfP604hf4YB9CwraVzv5mAtlCMMPzwzK45s7+5pbDk7w02oSC7ZZL6kVB25E6MJJ fhEjKfrlifGimnX+w5atW/ozKgWCgTxr1hwoZaNg+v0E/HG96N3OXj4nEaUnNaXow0LO khUD55PV39zA50hFzj8IfPdLEnaAn0f3jj/ABO1lXPGWI0oAyNSdAs55PAsSaZ3nbL+M 3grb/MsIoBFnhzbSzNi0cDb1oyAPp7ZWz5FxEaUx/2Q5AcyePIcCYRFzUBdQhPX/aTLD 3mpZZc0cVxxLhmeiDHQlrnmC/AkF82jG62zim5WB5fA91kWsSNv4r8L2aDqSBa7ai8Ll quuA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Nrb83lsbHu4a+sHTEqM3QioIMMLHNL3IY13NidlhSVQ=; b=e9T9G4GLHDqWg4EfQDYcW3scynTkKlw5yOEk+V3zLxfkdQnnygxg1PF8IgLEoCKt0f ae3MwI2bUSbPdiBkpNzmC9ohyKHYbpVkNiirfJRurJRPqcYHBtL8OrqDgtAt7luKqTi1 CtnB4hM0KXlxLkrjJdElAsoExZhkkuBGa9jqDWldC67OWz0SACe3cfy5JieO6Yt8dpwg kPyg2cEZB+Z/Stf1iZcDJ7fsLZapl4x1tlRoj5Ko1LR+LxHSRiBLrCIBXEZPd2Af2j9U bQVRgxqcW0rerJvrSUVqUT31PMMXK+Nm9uDK6SfCvMArqoiKqMPAKj95zrRv2USlfSSx 7FkA== X-Received: by 10.49.37.39 with SMTP id v7mr1428400qej.27.1364396673698; Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.52.73 with SMTP id r9ls3039288qeo.31.gmail; Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.3.42 with SMTP id 10mr1426628qez.23.1364396673084; Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 08:04:32 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <5b728577-ed49-469b-a28e-2a320c39e307@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9cb76aa0-a82f-490f-befe-faeb69060888@googlegroups.com> References: <9cb76aa0-a82f-490f-befe-faeb69060888@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4628_9292912.1364396672720" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_4628_9292912.1364396672720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:08:36 AM UTC+4, Daniel Evans wrote: > > . ui coi ro do > > I'm Daniel Evans, and I figured that I would share my thoughts on the > lojban place structure. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks, so I > finally sat down today for about four hours and typed up a really rough > paper about it. > > In a nutshell, I say it should be trashed. Thrown away. Why? Read the > paper, and then tell me what you think :) > As selpa'i already mentioned this system once existed and it was called N-paradigm (http://loglan.org/Paradigms/paradigm_n.html). After that Lojban was created. It tried to fix that system by introducing BAI class of cmavo. You mention Russian and as a native speaker of Russian I can wholeheartedly say that I hate it's case system. Indeed, only 6 cases (or only 12 cases like in Loglan) lead to raising of terrible metaphors in the language. Is it bad? For Lojban as a linguistic/logical/philosophical tool it's bad. For Lojban as a possible spoken language? I don't know. After all we do have this case system even in the current Lojban. e.g. {fa'a} roughly corresponds to Dative case. We can say {mi dunda ti fa'a do} (I give this towards you) but it'll be kinda metaphor. But yes, no one can stop you from speaking such Lojban. so BAI can be used instead of FA. As for SE they can be replaced with jai BAI, e.g. {do jai fa'a dunda ti fai mi} = you are given this-thing by me. So your proposal is okay. Just continue learning the vocab and the grammar and we'll be happy to hear you speaking your own style of metaphorical Lojban. Isn't it what most flexible languages in the world should allow for? ;) > I'll preface it (I did say this in the paper as all) with this: *I don't > think it's an awful system. Nor am I gonna be angry if everybody hates it. > * Keep in mind that I just blazed through a ten page paper, and didn't > take a whole lot of time to revise my thoughts. I just wanted to get my > thoughts down and organize them for myself. Doing so was best achieved by > writing a paper about it, and that ended up being too much work to keep it > to myself. I'm interested by what others think. It would be unbelievably > cool if my ideas could be implemented, but I don't necessarily expect it. > > It is attached to this post. Enjoy! > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_4628_9292912.1364396672720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:08:36 AM UTC+4, Daniel Evans wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">. ui coi ro do

I'm Daniel Evans, and I figured that I would share my thoughts on the lo= jban place structure. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks, so I fin= ally sat down today for about four hours and typed up a really rough paper = about it.

In a nutshell, I say it should be trashe= d. Thrown away. Why? Read the paper, and then tell me what you think :)

As selpa'i already mentioned this system= once existed and it was called N-paradigm (http://loglan.org/Paradigms/par= adigm_n.html). 
After that Lojban was created. It tried to f= ix that system by introducing BAI class of cmavo.
You mention Rus= sian and as a native speaker of Russian I can wholeheartedly say that I hat= e it's case system.

Indeed, only 6 cases (or only = 12 cases like in Loglan) lead to raising of terrible metaphors in the langu= age.
Is it bad? For Lojban as a linguistic/logical/philosophical = tool it's bad. For Lojban as a possible spoken language? I don't know.

After all we do have this case system even in the curr= ent Lojban.
e.g. {fa'a} roughly corresponds to Dative case.
=
We can say {mi dunda ti fa'a do} (I give this towards you) but it'll b= e kinda metaphor.

But yes, no one can stop you fro= m speaking such Lojban.
so BAI can be used instead of FA.
As for SE they can be replaced with jai BAI, e.g.
{do jai fa'a= dunda ti fai mi}  =3D you are given this-thing by me.

<= /div>
So your proposal is okay. Just continue learning the vocab and th= e grammar and we'll be happy to hear you speaking your own style of metapho= rical Lojban.
Isn't it what most flexible languages in the world = should allow for? ;)




I'll preface i= t (I did say this in the paper as all) with this: I don't think it's an = awful system. Nor am I gonna be angry if everybody hates it. Keep = in mind that I just blazed through a ten page paper, and didn't take a whol= e lot of time to revise my thoughts. I just wanted to get my thoughts down = and organize them for myself. Doing so was best achieved by writing a paper= about it, and that ended up being too much work to keep it to myself. I'm = interested by what others think. It would be unbelievably cool if my ideas = could be implemented, but I don't necessarily expect it.

It is attached to this post. Enjoy!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
------=_Part_4628_9292912.1364396672720--