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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:52:52 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure
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Something that bothers me about your paper, which as it stands is quite
good, is that you only deal with an extremely small portion of Lojban. You
don't touch at all on lujvo, which are what place structures are really
for. In the case of purely compositional lujvo, e.g. kansi'u, the place
structure lets you infer without any ambiguity or metaphor what the
resulting place structure of the lujvo will be, based solely on the
knowledge of the component gismu. As for memorizing the place structures of
component gismu, one must simply realize that Lojban already *has* a case
system. Simply put, rather than having named cases, we have numbered cases,
and in *many* cases, there is a lot of parallelism between gismu of the
same semantic category.

Consider {morji}, {djuno}, {smadi}, {sruma}, {jijnu}, {jimpe}, {senpi},
{birti}, {krici}, and {jinvi}.
morji = x1 remembers fact x2 about x3
djuno = x1 knows fact x2 about x3 by epistemology x4
smadi = x1 guesses x2 about x3
jijnu = x1 intuits x2 about x3
jimpe = x1 understands fact x2 about x3
senpi = x1 doubts that x2 is true
birti = x1 is sure that x2 is true
krici = x1 believes that x2 is true about x3
jinvi = x1 opines that x2 is true about x3 on grounds x4

In the "knowledge" family, which above isn't even complete, one immediately
notices the parallelism. This family along with the "family" family
(family-relation = x1 is the <type of relationship> of x2 by bond/tie x3;
e.g. bersa) and the foods and animals family (food/animal = x1 is a
<food/animal> of type/species/etc. x2) make up an extremely large portion
of the gismu list.

Now, I concede that even within a family, there are some exceptions, such
as birti and senpi, which don't have an "about" place at all, or jinvi and
djuno which are the only ones with an x4. Even in the food and animals
family, there are some notable oddballs such as lanme ( = x1 is a sheep of
species x2 of flock x3). However there being a difference in the number of
places *usually* isn't that much of a big deal. If someone accidentally
fills in an x3 of birti, any decent listener will understand what is meant,
due to the overarching systematic nature of the family to which it belongs.
On the other hand, when lujvo are made (according to the rules, that is)
oddball places may unfortunately need to be included, which can lead to
unexpected place structures in the resulting lujvo.

e.g. jboxlajivdunsi'u = x1 are equal in that they opine that lojban is bad
for x2 by standard x3 on grounds of belief x4.

If one forgets that xlali has a standard place in the x3, then if they try
to fill in the belief place of jinvi, things can get messy.

Still, I don't know how your proposed case system would cooperate with
lujvo (or would it simply drop lujvo from the language?) So I can't say
that the status quo is any better or worse.

Finally, semantic families don't always work. {cpedu}, {minde}, and {picki}
are in the same family, I'd say, but have place structures divergent in
rather irritating ways.

cpedu = x1 requests x2 of x3 in manner x4
minde = x1 orders x2 to x3
picki = x1 begs x2 to x3

However, if one takes into account the emphasis difference, (when ordering
something to happen, the person whom is ordered is more important, and
therefore moves closer to the front,) then it becomes easier to remember.
Also, cpedu2 being the action requested is more useful for translating "He
asked for a glass of water." Indeed, in that case, the person of whom that
action (giving a glass of water) is far less important (it could be anyone,
so in truth, we're just dropping the place entirely by context).

That being said, I strongly push towards efforts to regularize the gismu
list in order to make the numeric case system more self-consistent. One of
Lojban's major issues is a lack of self-consistency, as pointed out by
gleki in his thread about "four different vocabularies." However, the
existence of this multiple vocabularies is not a problem intrinsic to the
nature of Lojban, and is thus a whole other can of worms when contrasted
with the issues with place structure.

In sum, I believe that trashing place structure is overall a bad idea.
Place structure is central to Lojban's ideology, in my opinion, and
removing it from Lojban would be like taking the Lojban out of Lojban.
Named case systems are used in other conlangs, and if those are more
pleasant to you, then perhaps those you should try those out, too. Still,
Lojban remains extremely interesting. It was not made to be easy, and
complaints that its cornerstones are complicated are of little weight. As
you learn more, you will see that there is a lot of regularity, and that
this language still remains immensely more simple than a multitude of
others.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div>Something that bothers me about your paper, which as it stands is quit=
e good, is that you only deal with an extremely small portion of Lojban. Yo=
u don&#39;t touch at all on lujvo, which are what place structures are real=
ly for. In the case of purely compositional lujvo, e.g. kansi&#39;u, the pl=
ace structure lets you infer without any ambiguity or metaphor what the res=
ulting place structure of the lujvo will be, based solely on the knowledge =
of the component gismu. As for memorizing the place structures of component=
 gismu, one must simply realize that Lojban already *has* a case system. Si=
mply put, rather than having named cases, we have numbered cases, and in <b=
>many</b>=A0cases, there is a lot of parallelism between gismu of the same =
semantic category.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>Consider {morji}, {djuno}, {smadi}, {sruma}, {jijnu}, {=
jimpe}, {senpi}, {birti}, {krici}, and {jinvi}.</div><div>morji =3D x1 reme=
mbers fact x2 about x3</div><div>djuno =3D x1 knows fact x2 about x3 by epi=
stemology x4</div>

<div>smadi =3D x1 guesses x2 about x3</div><div>jijnu =3D x1 intuits x2 abo=
ut x3</div><div>jimpe =3D x1 understands fact x2 about x3</div><div>senpi =
=3D x1 doubts that x2 is true</div><div>birti =3D x1 is sure that x2 is tru=
e</div>

<div>krici =3D x1 believes that x2 is true about x3</div><div>jinvi =3D x1 =
opines that x2 is true about x3 on grounds x4</div><div><br></div><div>In t=
he &quot;knowledge&quot; family, which above isn&#39;t even complete, one i=
mmediately notices the parallelism. This family along with the &quot;family=
&quot; family (family-relation =3D x1 is the &lt;type of relationship&gt; o=
f x2 by bond/tie x3; e.g. bersa) and the foods and animals family (food/ani=
mal =3D x1 is a &lt;food/animal&gt; of type/species/etc. x2) make up an ext=
remely large portion of the gismu list.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Now, I concede that even within a family, there are som=
e exceptions, such as birti and senpi, which don&#39;t have an &quot;about&=
quot; place at all, or jinvi and djuno which are the only ones with an x4. =
Even in the food and animals family, there are some notable oddballs such a=
s lanme ( =3D x1 is a sheep of species x2 of flock x3). However there being=
 a difference in the number of places *usually* isn&#39;t that much of a bi=
g deal. If someone accidentally fills in an x3 of birti, any decent listene=
r will understand what is meant, due to the overarching systematic nature o=
f the family to which it belongs. On the other hand, when lujvo are made (a=
ccording to the rules, that is) oddball places may unfortunately need to be=
 included, which can lead to unexpected place structures in the resulting l=
ujvo.</div>

<div><br></div><div>e.g. jboxlajivdunsi&#39;u =3D x1 are equal in that they=
 opine that lojban is bad for x2 by standard x3 on grounds of belief x4.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>If one forgets that xlali has a standard place in th=
e x3, then if they try to fill in the belief place of jinvi, things can get=
 messy.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Still, I don&#39;t know how your proposed case system w=
ould cooperate with lujvo (or would it simply drop lujvo from the language?=
) So I can&#39;t say that the status quo is any better or worse.</div>
<div>
<br></div><div>Finally, semantic families don&#39;t always work. {cpedu}, {=
minde}, and {picki} are in the same family, I&#39;d say, but have place str=
uctures divergent in rather irritating ways.</div><div><br></div><div>
cpedu =3D x1 requests x2 of x3 in manner x4</div>
<div>minde =3D x1 orders x2 to x3</div><div>picki =3D x1 begs x2 to x3</div=
><div><br></div><div>However, if one takes into account the emphasis differ=
ence, (when ordering something to happen, the person whom is ordered is mor=
e important, and therefore moves closer to the front,) then it becomes easi=
er to remember. Also, cpedu2 being the action requested is more useful for =
translating &quot;He asked for a glass of water.&quot; Indeed, in that case=
, the person of whom that action (giving a glass of water) is far less impo=
rtant (it could be anyone, so in truth, we&#39;re just dropping the place e=
ntirely by context).</div>

<div><br></div><div>That being said, I strongly push towards efforts to reg=
ularize the gismu list in order to make the numeric case system more self-c=
onsistent. One of Lojban&#39;s major issues is a lack of self-consistency, =
as pointed out by gleki in his thread about &quot;four different vocabulari=
es.&quot; However, the existence of this multiple vocabularies is not a pro=
blem intrinsic to the nature of Lojban, and is thus a whole other can of wo=
rms when contrasted with the issues with place structure.</div>

<div><br></div><div>In sum, I believe that trashing place structure is over=
all a bad idea. Place structure is central to Lojban&#39;s ideology, in my =
opinion, and removing it from Lojban would be like taking the Lojban out of=
 Lojban. Named case systems are used in other conlangs, and if those are mo=
re pleasant to you, then perhaps those you should try those out, too. Still=
, Lojban remains extremely interesting. It was not made to be easy, and com=
plaints that its cornerstones are complicated are of little weight. As you =
learn more, you will see that there is a lot of regularity, and that this l=
anguage still remains immensely more simple than a multitude of others.</di=
v>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div>

<p></p>

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