Received: from mail-qe0-f59.google.com ([209.85.128.59]:42633) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ULVnr-0003X7-4U for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:41:04 -0700 Received: by mail-qe0-f59.google.com with SMTP id 7sf129124qeb.4 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:40:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0k4PvjhtNez+XAv6YVGMPLscn9f0dh679deVRYK87xY=; b=uYDAncMUDh0V+j1AiLdcXdcO4lfedIbgt8+FvCpS98jZuHbRfwsAPl+PKrLFxMJZjB oGIkmUSiG4T7V+cWNC9W4PIL2a/q193y823YfV1vVHakGgC6GtbTZMpoqpGr5JkLBVZe n7/liBWprArKZXrVJCD9yKcUbgOszkUqB3Kkd8Uk8IEXLMaGI+h7Sy3srZluuckjq7tS YuZPpOTxpn2UlvzfDcnsW6wRJfqDWDXuNIoIrlzF8X7OULGJofFkFnp080vEuGIW/bmy 0BCEN7lgUXBek9YIRG2D611K5g5CHBu4DXDWN5d3qLwu7HcBFtwqGc1S7DnwAxYgDXNb XrQA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0k4PvjhtNez+XAv6YVGMPLscn9f0dh679deVRYK87xY=; b=cCqNfVGYviTCZdwAh5FcQtDvIMvOfvzDUQ6y6XvUg+bV+p2JiJTv9cMx+fmwac65TW kVRRvBHwNeVwf7gg2BcPP5Z+xHeCu5gtzGAwBFPQg0Npstpf2jhrKEsJNj+XZQ7iz4cR Visnxpr7j7aDyGt63VN/clNQkrqWTErHU1CYwjiVf+KVWa8zGIlALWU7E48us3Uxh6sv XvDJjPT1w81SqRgC/TlmQxXuDEYJd+gGHiVxB35UphEnCxrEkqnjbWdOgQI28Ujks9Ci Hz7afahellH7DYu6UscIiHHsnI97ffqWIZ+z1MH8jvjEBb6GOuSLBwz0cVk6doXWsoEm lo2A== X-Received: by 10.49.127.145 with SMTP id ng17mr97146qeb.9.1364550047567; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.83.230 with SMTP id t6ls197606qey.17.gmail; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.75.66 with SMTP id a2mr86195qew.21.1364550047061; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 02:40:46 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <5bb0fb75-1481-4664-98a3-2726493a03aa@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9cb76aa0-a82f-490f-befe-faeb69060888@googlegroups.com> References: <9cb76aa0-a82f-490f-befe-faeb69060888@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_72_13953591.1364550046693" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_72_13953591.1364550046693 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:08:36 AM UTC+4, Daniel Evans wrote: > > I just wanted to get my thoughts down and organize them for myself. Doing= =20 > so was best achieved by writing a paper about it, and that ended up being= =20 > too much work to keep it to myself. I'm interested by what others think. = It=20 > would be unbelievably cool if my ideas could be implemented, but I don't= =20 > necessarily expect it. > > It is attached to this post. Enjoy! > Several notes not necessarily on Lojban but on the understanding of other= =20 languages. The phrase "=E2=80=9CIs it possible to assign this system to any current or= future=20 lojban word without=20 making exceptions? That is, is this system complete enough to handle the=20 full range of human thought and communication?=E2=80=9D My answer is that I do not know. However, it wo= rks for=20 Russian and many, many other languages =E2=80=93 why would it fail here?" The answer is that there is no such system in Russian. You patched Russian= =20 case system, namely dropped Prepositional Case. Secondly, Russian can't express all sumti places using only declension. The= =20 full system is the following "verb + [preposition + ] noun/pronoun +case " This system both works for English and Russian. Namely, in English "go, with , they =3D> to go with them" Here we attach the preposition to the verb, then add a pronoun "they" that= =20 is declined into "them". There are two cases in English, "nominative" and= =20 "oblique" (terms may vary). As in Russian there are 6 cases some prepositions may work with more than= =20 one case. So e.g. =D1=81 =D0=BD=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8 [s nimi] =3D with them (the glossing is "wi= th they-INSTRUMENTAL") =D1=81 =D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=85 [s nikh] =3D from them (the glossing is "with the= y-GENITIVE"). As for the rest of the paper ambiguities raised by practice of speaking=20 such language will be obvious. e.g. "tavla: NOM talks/speaks to DAT about subject LOC in language INS" Locative here would rather mean the place where you are talking rather than= =20 the subject of what you talking about. Notice that both Russian and English= =20 use the same preposition "about" ("=D0=BE" in Russian) to describe the subj= ect=20 of the talk. However (*ke'u*), prepositions were ignored in this system. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_72_13953591.1364550046693 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:08:36 AM UTC+4, Daniel Evans wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
I just wanted to get my th= oughts down and organize them for myself. Doing so was best achieved by wri= ting a paper about it, and that ended up being too much work to keep it to = myself. I'm interested by what others think. It would be unbelievably cool = if my ideas could be implemented, but I don't necessarily expect it.
<= div>
It is attached to this post. Enjoy!

Several notes not necessarily on Lojban but on the unders= tanding of other languages.
The phrase "=E2=80=9CIs it possible t= o assign this system to any current or future lojban word without 
making exceptions? That is, is this system complete enough to handle= the full range of human thought
and communication?=E2=80=9D My a= nswer is that I do not know. However, it works for Russian and many, many
other languages =E2=80=93 why would it fail here?"

<= /div>
The answer is that there is no such system in Russian. You patche= d Russian case system, namely dropped Prepositional Case.
Secondl= y, Russian can't express all sumti places using only declension. The full s= ystem is the following

"verb + [preposition + ] no= un/pronoun +case "

This system both works for Engl= ish and Russian.
Namely, in English

"go,= with , they  =3D> to go with them"

Here w= e attach the preposition to the verb, then add a pronoun "they" that is dec= lined into "them". There are two cases in English, "nominative" and "obliqu= e" (terms may vary).

As in Russian there are 6 cas= es some prepositions may work with more than one case. So e.g.
=D1=81 =D0=BD=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8 [s nimi] =3D with them (the gl= ossing is "with they-INSTRUMENTAL")
=D1=81 =D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=85 [s = nikh] =3D from them (the glossing is "with they-GENITIVE").

<= /div>

As for the rest of the paper ambiguities raised by= practice of speaking such language will be obvious. e.g.
"t= avla: NOM talks/speaks to DAT  about subject LOC in language INS"

Locative here would rather mean the place where = you are talking rather than the subject of what you talking about. Notice t= hat both Russian and English use the same preposition "about" ("=D0=BE" in = Russian) to describe the subject of the talk. However (ke'u), prepos= itions were ignored in this system.

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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