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[66.94.237.205]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f66si119792yhj.7.2013.03.29.11.59.55 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.205 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.205; Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2013 18:59:54 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.106] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2013 18:59:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1011.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2013 18:59:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 741808.36704.bm@omp1011.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 67890 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Mar 2013 18:59:54 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: kHC3hGsVM1kdZPdWo_z6cnaU0wctf95ffJHU8R66HilauPA ABZ1MenVQslQLSZsaU6.aqt8GHxUrtHP5xj3HZmNAQ5fgo3GNTuT6nI18_ZY 4J.tZCXJp61qWEnhdhJzjBNWLPWMdrEVYXYNU5g2SACnJFBsV07Y3wLcpb__ 5qhbkWrWvs7aUbacHSrAmSSLVY4baf.3jNicyJjtC5vXfW7pfPuTqG2Tecdm mKAaz3B6Avaj3et5lTcpHVzcRj.UGHi5S5debXORdRn7egu1ej6r37t79zcG 2FZiMWPnm5bZjnv3IetKlTSzOj3vNLzQs1oWxQOOWNy_eEOKI3t9Ljnbjdjg nsRssPstlGLqyTQlMv6ouX7nQ6YmpFoCn6nBKKXw9AJmLO9esGKQH5EC1T7h Sw2FhEFqEp5OLC34nKqVWEVGLbchd570uHZjc5tuRwv_TgOzCVpDW_G5DhyB fm83Fc4_fUhtpZsHH_E.bNzIMpC38L8zJoZmhOkeqW77zIOvtkZ8HYLua6kG Q3kcbxcYyJXXSW5_x_Gz7wWcpSCBDn9oqndURxR81gOJk_ZW30FIHr1wpXR_ ITMbyxQZg7zajutAg1s8zpGrLP9AnjSlmOGPKPVyoj8V8VbBRp8i0zPgaW1u VXMLWtVhrZ4cxykvqz2zPlCFdZemzSBOb12UkusO5UqeSnILASXOegvZkces EmxHBlNowbfv3bd8RJ12g5W_IkJmQtGs- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:59:54 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QW5kIHNvIGNhbiBlYWNoIHByZXBvc2l0aW9uL2Nhc2UuCgoKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwogRnJvbTogTW9ycGhlbWVBZGRpY3QgPGx5dGxlc3dAZ21haWwuY29tPgpUbzogbG9qYmFuQGdvb2dsZWdyb3Vwcy5jb20gClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgTWFyY2ggMjksIDIwMTMgMTE6MzcgQU0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtsb2piYW5dIEEgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgTG9qYmFuIFN5c3RlbSBvZiBQbGFjZSBTdHJ1Y3R1cmUKIAoKWWVzLCBwbGFjZXMgY2FuLCBiZWNhdXNlIGVhY2ggcGwBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.139.530 References: <9cb76aa0-a82f-490f-befe-faeb69060888@googlegroups.com> <1364567611.32356.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1364583594.67473.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.205 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-2129998083-1364583594=:67473" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1789658926-2129998083-1364583594=:67473 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And so can each preposition/case. ________________________________ From: MorphemeAddict To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure =20 Yes, places can, because each place of each selbri can be defined uniquely.= =A0 stevo On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 10:33 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: And places can?=A0 Surely, if so, then prepositions or affix cases can.=A0 = But it is unlikely that any system can unambiguously cover all possible rel= ations; the present one surely does not. > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: MorphemeAddict >To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:10 AM > >Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure >=20 > > >IIRC, Loglan (and then Lojban) used place structures instead of prepositio= ns or case endings because cases and/or prepositions could not unambiguousl= y accommodate all the meanings necessary.=A0 > > >stevo > > > >On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:08 PM, wrote: > >. ui coi ro do >> >> >>I'm Daniel Evans, and I figured that I would share my thoughts on the loj= ban place structure. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks, so I fina= lly sat down today for about four hours and typed up a really rough paper a= bout it. >> >> >>In a nutshell, I say it should be trashed. Thrown away. Why? Read the pap= er, and then tell me what you think :) >> >> >>I'll preface it (I did say this in the paper as all) with this: I don't t= hink it's an awful system. Nor am I gonna be angry if everybody hates it.= =A0Keep in mind that I just blazed through a ten page paper, and didn't tak= e a whole lot of time to revise my thoughts. I just wanted to get my though= ts down and organize them for myself. Doing so was best achieved by writing= a paper about it, and that ended up being too much work to keep it to myse= lf. I'm interested by what others think. It would be unbelievably cool if m= y ideas could be implemented, but I don't necessarily expect it. >> >> >>It is attached to this post. Enjoy!--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>=A0 >>=A0 >> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > > > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-2129998083-1364583594=:67473 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And so can each prepo= sition/case.



From: MorphemeAddict <= ;lytlesw@gmail.com>
To:= lojban@googlegroups.com
Sen= t: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban Sy= stem of Place Structure

Yes, places can, because each pl= ace of each selbri can be defined uniquely. 

stevo


On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 10:33 AM, John = E Clifford <ka= li9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
And places can?&n= bsp; Surely, if so, then prepositions or affix cases can.  But it is u= nlikely that any system can unambiguously cover all possible relations; the= present one surely does not.



From: MorphemeAddict <= lytlesw@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 29, 20= 13 9:10 AM

Subject: Re: [lojban] A Discussion of the Lojban System of Place Structure

IIRC, Loglan (and then Lojban) used place structures = instead of prepositions or case endings because cases and/or prepositions c= ould not unambiguously accommodate all the meanings necessary. 
stevo


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:08 PM, <daniel.e2718@g= mail.com> wrote:
. ui coi ro do

I'm Daniel Evans, and I figured= that I would share my thoughts on the lojban place structure. I've been th= inking about it for a few weeks, so I finally sat down today for about four= hours and typed up a really rough paper about it.

In a nutshell, I say it should be trashed. Thrown away.= Why? Read the paper, and then tell me what you think :)

I'll preface it (I did say this in the paper as all) with this: I= don't think it's an awful system. Nor am I gonna be angry if everybody hat= es it. Keep in mind that I just blazed through a ten page paper, a= nd didn't take a whole lot of time to revise my thoughts. I just wanted to = get my thoughts down and organize them for myself. Doing so was best achiev= ed by writing a paper about it, and that ended up being too much work to ke= ep it to myself. I'm interested by what others think. It would be unbelieva= bly cool if my ideas could be implemented, but I don't necessarily expect i= t.

It is attached to this post. Enjoy!
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