Received: from mail-gg0-f191.google.com ([209.85.161.191]:48565) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UO5rE-0000uX-7f for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:35:13 -0700 Received: by mail-gg0-f191.google.com with SMTP id r1sf1091947ggn.8 for ; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:34:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PeeGYgZK3zq9uZqVQzWp9OUfsC+TuDRQ5WboKGtN9gI=; b=UuVARiJMMNs6GOG+6sFBQAKzCuD43E0PwbrMZLFMFYuMgMJL0SyI4SO1MbpKRODrBE fbX3D3JGOU+BE/fy4xED9DsPG7yLGTrLUNGWWrWEwDm1K+tyfu2rPpFiZYaaCOVlF2q7 8AqePfsjubjB0b6XPMZxAvD+wDsO6KgMZUDDElkAnPoNgHNYD3PKHUBO5XdqREN/5Ry5 oSsD3nnYLPDsKx9NFFeOElsgMQrF0Vj3HM4Pxa886zH3G77CtUyfiXS9Zo4otSEMRYvZ Tml1KhkhoarK0b0cghJmOntW6n30qijE9AaRpcthh/ry+DhbZBCAvpScWlIwrqjo7Chl XM0g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PeeGYgZK3zq9uZqVQzWp9OUfsC+TuDRQ5WboKGtN9gI=; b=t0IVwe0m55L95dvy4nYV27kMUyehAdEB7zJUeloVW7yrWCNRTENWfMBKYlRhDs3AMz InqYbU7Ie6w2o3rtIrAWWjFIor9mpJLXWQxjdC//qYXlEyXkZdBMeuGs4yUlrpF9Q6b0 R46ZyE0/NG5h3ByUJyYCa4j4g1LMBETO9Qp++CEsry0W+rM8kZGgIe6QrcCn0tbm6G/M XIMm3xDnkENnmABWMN17lKixnBWX/xkbzbLGMOcy5MKYd+/tZ+kwOl8kwkXOOPxOtlv3 +IaGx+3lWJgPLAWFi1dQ4gHzxkde9K1Q0aHpkdlVAvME/JBPUg1fn59pIMucvkzTrsZv HMhw== X-Received: by 10.49.81.198 with SMTP id c6mr934080qey.37.1365165297935; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:34:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.18.162 with SMTP id x2ls2027265qed.37.gmail; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.127.200 with SMTP id ni8mr934752qeb.42.1365165295718; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 05:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <98e2ef1b-044c-4233-a567-5f58a0586db6@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <78563624-9255-41a0-b09c-fb9cd7c03d33@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: No gismu for Difference MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1895_5330397.1365165295454" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1895_5330397.1365165295454 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:17:14 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote: > > I was also referring to order; selsumji(x1,x2,x3) is true iff x1=3Dx2-x3.= A=20 > better description than my previous one is that selsumji is extensionally= =20 > but not intensionally equivalent to a subtraction brivla. I think the=20 > intensional meaning is important to how we utilize subtraction, because w= e=20 > think of removal, not re-addition. > Does that also mean that we need two separate gismu for "to buy" and "to=20 sell"? > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Jonathan Jones > > wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 11:46 PM, Ian Johnson >> > wrote: >> >>> Only truth-functionally, which is my point. Structurally it's more like= =20 >>> x2 =3D x1+x3, just moving the + to a different spot instead of actually= =20 >>> introducing a -. >> >> >> I was referring to order, but either way, selsumji isn't anywhere near= =20 >> ideal for "subtraction". >> =20 >> >>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Jonathan Jones >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Ian Johnson >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> The problem is that arithmetic is supposed to abstract physical=20 >>>>> situations. Addition abstracts the merging of groups, while subtracti= on=20 >>>>> abstracts the removal of a subgroup from a group. In other words, + p= anra=20 >>>>> jmina, - panra vimcu. From this standpoint "6=3D8-2" is essentially "= if you=20 >>>>> take away 2 from 8 you get 6". {selsumji} fi'o tarmi ku is thinking o= f=20 >>>>> "6=3D8-2" as something like "if you put 2 back in 6, you would get 8"= , which=20 >>>>> is rather convoluted. It's truth-functionally the same, but the chara= cter=20 >>>>> of the description feels different. >>>> >>>> >>>> But it matches the other math gismu, all of which are "x1 is the resul= t=20 >>>> of x2 x3". >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:02 AM, la gleki >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, March 25, 2013 5:50:26 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Johnson w= rote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed, this has been something that has nagged at the back of my= =20 >>>>>>>> mind since I started studying the language; there are fairly few w= ords=20 >>>>>>>> which are sufficiently similar to their source language counterpar= ts to=20 >>>>>>>> help a speaker of a source language learn the language more easily= .=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is why I say the vocabulary is equally d=EDfficult for everybo= dy.=20 >>>>>>> The memory hooks aren't numerous for any given language, and they'r= e not=20 >>>>>>> consistent enough to make them useful to learn. Totally ad hoc word= s could=20 >>>>>>> hardly be more difficult to learn than what we have.=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This algorithm originated in the first SciAm paper by JCB. He claime= d=20 >>>>>> the existence of global etymology. *sei mi morji *Lojban doesnt have= =20 >>>>>> any goals to prove the existence of such thing. The only reason to a= pply=20 >>>>>> the algorithm is mnemonics. Otherwise Lojban is completely apriori. >>>>>> >>>>>> Given that the number of speakers of Romance languages exceed the=20 >>>>>> number of Chinese speakers I suggest {difro} or similar gismu once a= gain. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, what I'd like more is not to add more gismu but instead to= =20 >>>>>> remove some of the existing. The adoption of {selsumji}=3D"differenc= e" will=20 >>>>>> teach newbies "predicate reasoning". If a person can cope with rearr= anging=20 >>>>>> sumti places and knows the basic vocabulary then 'ey is already a go= od=20 >>>>>> speaker of Lojban. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The stated purpose of the algorithm doesn't seem like it was reall= y=20 >>>>>>>> achieved, pe'i. Not that that's a bad thing, as it still provides = a source=20 >>>>>>>> of an a priori vocabulary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=20 >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d=20 >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1895_5330397.1365165295454 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:17:14 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:I was also referring to order; selsumji(= x1,x2,x3) is true iff x1=3Dx2-x3. A better description than my previous one= is that selsumji is extensionally but not intensionally equivalent to a su= btraction brivla. I think the intensional meaning is important to how we ut= ilize subtraction, because we think of removal, not re-addition.

Does that also mean that we need two separate gis= mu for "to buy" and "to sell"?

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Mon, Mar 25, = 2013 at 1:48 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.co= m> wrote:
On Sun, Mar = 24, 2013 at 11:46 PM, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gma= il.com> wrote:
Only truth-functionally, which is my point. Structurally it's more like x2 = =3D x1+x3, just moving the + to a different spot instead of actually introd= ucing a -.

I was referring to order, but either = way, selsumji isn't anywhere near ideal for "subtraction".
 
m= i'e la latro'a mu'o

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:40 AM,= Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com>= wrote:
On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Ian Johns= on <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
The problem is that arithmetic is supposed to abstract physical situations.= Addition abstracts the merging of groups, while subtraction abstracts the = removal of a subgroup from a group. In other words, + panra jmina, - panra = vimcu. From this standpoint "6=3D8-2" is essentially "if you take away 2 fr= om 8 you get 6". {selsumji} fi'o tarmi ku is thinking of "6=3D8-2" as somet= hing like "if you put 2 back in 6, you would get 8", which is rather convol= uted. It's truth-functionally the same, but the character of the descriptio= n feels different.

But it matches the other math gismu, all of which are "x1 is= the result of x2 <operand> x3".
 
mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 1:02 AM, la gleki <= ;gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Monday, March 25, 2013 5:50:26 AM= UTC+4, stevo wrote:


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Ian Joh= nson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Indeed, this has been something that has nagged at the back of my mind sinc= e I started studying the language; there are fairly few words which are suf= ficiently similar to their source language counterparts to help a speaker o= f a source language learn the language more easily.

This is why I say the vocabulary is equally d=EDfficult= for everybody. The memory hooks aren't numerous for any given language, an= d they're not consistent enough to make them useful to learn. Totally ad ho= c words could hardly be more difficult to learn than what we have. 

This algorithm originated in t= he first SciAm paper by JCB. He claimed the existence of global etymology. = sei mi morji Lojban doesnt have any goals to prove the existence of = such thing. The only reason to apply the algorithm is mnemonics. Otherwise = Lojban is completely apriori.

Given that the number of speakers of Romance languages = exceed the number of Chinese speakers I suggest {difro} or similar gismu on= ce again.

However, what I'd like more is not to ad= d more gismu but instead to remove some of the existing. The adoption of {s= elsumji}=3D"difference" will teach newbies "predicate reasoning". If a pers= on can cope with rearranging sumti places and knows the basic vocabulary th= en 'ey is already a good speaker of Lojban.


 
The stated purpose of the algorithm doesn't seem like it was really achieve= d, pe'i. Not that that's a bad thing, as it still provides a source of an a= priori vocabulary.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
=

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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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