Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 05:41:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: vecnu2 types
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On Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:17:29 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:
>
> There are several types of vecnu2 that we've been stumbling around 
> recently, some of which are really not compatible with one another. They 
> include:
>
>
>    1. Selling an object. mu'a {mi vecnu lo plise do}, "I sell you an 
>    apple" (or whatever other object). The natural implication here is that {lo 
>    vecnu co'u ponse lo se vecnu .i lo te vecnu co'a ponse lo se vecnu}. This 
>    is simple, and the most common case. I think it is important to be able to 
>    say this without circumlocution. 
>    2. Selling a property of the seller. That is, the buyer pays the 
>    seller so that the seller will do something. In other words, the vecnu1 is 
>    selling a service. A simple example is {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u jukpa lo cidja 
>    kei do}, "I sell you the service of me cooking food". If one insists that 
>    vecnu is statically typed *and* that there aren't separate terms for 
>    different sorts of "selling", then the case of selling an object ko'a can 
>    be precisely rendered as {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u dunda ko'a kei do}, and 
>    imprecisely rendered as {mi vecnu tu'a ko'a do}. 
>    3. Selling a binary relation between the buyer and seller. That is, 
>    the buyer pays the seller; most likely the seller does something; the 
>    result is that a binary relation is established between the buyer and 
>    seller. Assuming (arbitrarily) that the seller is the first ce'u and the 
>    buyer is the second, we get examples like  {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u zbasu lo 
>    zdani be ce'u kei do}, "I sell you the service of building your house." As 
>    in the second, you can turn selling of objects into {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u 
>    dunda ko'a ce'u}. The second version, of course, can't be directly rendered 
>    here, but I would claim that the second version always implicitly involves 
>    the vecnu3 anyways; {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u jukpa lo cidja [pe ce'u] kei do}, 
>    mu'a. 
>    4. The other two are selling a property of the buyer and selling an 
>    event. These seem to not actually make sense, or at the very least fail to 
>    include implicit causation, in that the seller certainly does *something 
>    *to make whatever event take place.  
>
>
> My sentiment: formally designate vecnu as selling objects, make a new word 
> for selling binary relations, encode the second version in the new word by 
> allowing the second ce'u to be implicit.
>
> .i do ma jinvi
>

mi jinvi zo'ei di'e

canja -caj- gismu

x1 exchanges/trades/barters commodity x2 for x3 with x4; x1, x4 is a 
trader/merchant/businessman.

Also (adjective:) x1, x2, x4 is/are commercial (better expressed as ka 
canja, kamcanja). x2/x3 may be a *specific object, a commodity (mass), an 
event (possibly service), or a property; pedantically, for 
objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the 
object/commodity* (= posycanja for unambiguous semantics); (cf. dunda, 
friti, vecnu, zarci, jdini, pleji, jdima, jerna, kargu; see note at jdima 
on cost/price/value distinction, banxa, cirko, dunda, janta, kargu, prali, 
sfasa, zivle)

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<br><br>On Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:17:29 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div>There are several types of vecnu2 t=
hat we've been stumbling around recently, some of which are really not comp=
atible with one another. They include:</div><div><br></div><div><ol><li>Sel=
ling an object. mu'a {mi vecnu lo plise do}, "I sell you an apple" (or what=
ever other object). The natural implication here is that {lo vecnu co'u pon=
se lo se vecnu .i lo te vecnu co'a ponse lo se vecnu}. This is simple, and =
the most common case. I think it is important to be able to say this withou=
t circumlocution.</li>
<li>Selling a property of the seller. That is, the buyer pays the seller so=
 that the seller will do something. In other words, the vecnu1 is selling a=
 service. A simple example is {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u jukpa lo cidja kei do}, =
"I sell you the service of me cooking food". If one insists that vecnu is s=
tatically typed <i>and</i>&nbsp;that there aren't separate terms for differ=
ent sorts of "selling", then the case of selling an object ko'a can be prec=
isely rendered as {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u dunda ko'a kei do}, and imprecisely =
rendered as {mi vecnu tu'a ko'a do}.</li>
<li>Selling a binary relation between the buyer and seller. That is, the bu=
yer pays the seller; most likely the seller does something; the result is t=
hat a binary relation is established between the buyer and seller. Assuming=
 (arbitrarily) that the seller is the first ce'u and the buyer is the secon=
d, we get examples like &nbsp;{mi vecnu lo ka ce'u zbasu lo zdani be ce'u k=
ei do}, "I sell you the service of building your house." As in the second, =
you can turn selling of objects into {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u dunda ko'a ce'u}.=
 The second version, of course, can't be directly rendered here, but I woul=
d claim that the second version always implicitly involves the vecnu3 anywa=
ys; {mi vecnu lo ka ce'u jukpa lo cidja [pe ce'u] kei do}, mu'a.</li>
<li>The other two are selling a property of the buyer and selling an event.=
 These seem to not actually make sense, or at the very least fail to includ=
e implicit causation, in that the seller certainly does <i>something </i>to=
 make whatever event take place.&nbsp;</li>
</ol></div><div><br></div><div>My sentiment: formally designate vecnu as se=
lling objects, make a new word for selling binary relations, encode the sec=
ond version in the new word by allowing the second ce'u to be implicit.</di=
v>
<div><br></div><div>.i do ma jinvi</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>mi=
 jinvi zo'ei di'e</div><div><br></div><div>canja -caj- gismu</div><div><br>=
</div><div>x1 exchanges/trades/barters commodity x2 for x3 with x4; x1, x4 =
is a trader/merchant/businessman.</div><div><br></div><div>Also (adjective:=
) x1, x2, x4 is/are commercial (better expressed as ka canja, kamcanja). x2=
/x3 may be a <b>specific object, a commodity (mass), an event (possibly ser=
vice), or a property; pedantically, for objects/commodities, this is sumti-=
raising from ownership of the object/commodity</b> (=3D posycanja for unamb=
iguous semantics); (cf. dunda, friti, vecnu, zarci, jdini, pleji, jdima, je=
rna, kargu; see note at jdima on cost/price/value distinction, banxa, cirko=
, dunda, janta, kargu, prali, sfasa, zivle)</div>

<p></p>

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