Received: from mail-vb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:37134) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UP5vB-0003GW-1e for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:51:33 -0700 Received: by mail-vb0-f61.google.com with SMTP id 11sf1630722vbe.16 for ; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UnbGS78+PEONy9RmyH4lTSCusazGZe3u1ISDmIFhCX0=; b=q+XGzD2kSwF+K4mo/q61LpjpVZOP5i6bLNGN7MZOZtjgTkiAhu0qKwq1R82MUpJLFb 4UYEcIyhWDt0+F6ARntIa1jU1i9rDa+YqfhdEOnT4xjUPEa6dOygZ99Ib+NHghwqqGQf StsWGyyC8v9vmno83r9SViOcrUjf/WS6azUkStl570BGzQN0NfMBpKqMOkw0CreKZMir OAWQxpishHMHHovOCo9tL6jJzytkCSNqkclHu6HjUw6/fe9VuJytQiyrbnjq11sAsZuZ AEyqXex+Ot4R/b1mHG6kdB3hj5kJyhkYlGwyKdSxxZmN+UGwFbgKwzbhr9Vl8fVlBmtv eQ9g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UnbGS78+PEONy9RmyH4lTSCusazGZe3u1ISDmIFhCX0=; b=d2REWp/VpFlJbXDPXHF8gIZGo6BOSjIeTURhwXVOalGWiso83j5zLJzXL7KOYiIswS EP/ZZJLuoSOutgkm8h+ja9ABi78X/dn5rrrr1xhZxbUUTTIigTPNizB8kE5a8wruHALp kqIB7oTJDtvLzKOyJYXENzjvz8UOWI+C4iKz3uuc8/RgBIMclHmPdqG8H7K12D4uc0Is OnGy7XSeyKlJPiOkk2H9xXgqC9PJJ7/AVNx3DFFN6Hp6CWffzNNH2J51I00AzkFqaBn1 4oSumWPFOub/VTvnOuWL8z1RNHOKhgEVyytwdNGPySZ9LhDPX43Jxl8l6fjYPwfFysO2 B8kg== X-Received: by 10.49.49.193 with SMTP id w1mr1545840qen.3.1365403870214; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.49.4 with SMTP id q4ls3001654qen.62.gmail; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.127.145 with SMTP id ng17mr1537074qeb.9.1365403869886; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0f521c2b-1dba-4ddb-b6de-f0ef3e4911d6@googlegroups.com> References: <20111107073107.GI21492@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20111110070826.GT19979@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4EBC1F61.5040806@gmail.com> <20111118081544.GB2500@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <57e78744-ca43-461d-a0ff-5627305923fd@googlegroups.com> <20120714203726.GF30080@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <8f7c8ee6-3529-42cd-8b37-b1647295bba4@googlegroups.com> <11d882eb-8fd3-4e20-afc9-80dda2fc128a@googlegroups.com> <3222e614-449e-4885-a499-ba60ad7485d3@googlegroups.com> <505DEFA3.1010608@gmx.de> <0f521c2b-1dba-4ddb-b6de-f0ef3e4911d6@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4154_25073513.1365403869540" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_4154_25073513.1365403869540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:23:08 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote: > > > > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:04:40 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote: >> >> Am 22.09.2012 19:02, schrieb Ian Johnson:=20 >> > {mi viska lo plise noi farlu}. With some more twiddling you can force= =20 >> > simultaneity if you care about it.=20 >> >> Or just "mi viska lo nu lo plise cu farlu".=20 >> > > Hey, yes and no. That's the point. If lo se viska can be an abstraction= =20 > then my new gismu work. If not then I'll have to revert back to less=20 > backward-compatible 3-argument predicates. Both my suggestions can be fou= nd=20 > on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+sensory+gismu > Is zgana2 an abstraction place or not? Anyway, here is the table of what we have. te jvinu se jvinu jvinu viska se viska=20 te skari skari skari tirna se tirna=20 se sance sance krixa se krixa sumne se sumne=20 te panci se panci panci se vrusi vrusi te palpi se palpi palpi rufsu te smaka se smaka smaka se kukte kukte {smaka} (taste) and {palpi} (palpable surface) are experimental words. We= =20 can clearly see that it is possible to regularise the structure of all this= =20 stuff. The question is what solution to choose? 3-place solution seems to be the= =20 best one but it requires the third column to be an abstraction. Like {mi te jvinu lo tcadu lo ka jibni lo cmana}. Besides, 3rd column of visual= =20 channel is not filled. Is {jvinu} restricted to visual channel? If so then= =20 no questions here. For audio channel {te sance} might be a good solution. I think this whole issue is something that can be fixed without breaking=20 much backward compatibility. =20 > >> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20 >> >> --=20 >> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo=20 >> >> do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u=20 >> .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u=20 >> ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu=20 >> .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi=20 >> gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi=20 >> .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku=20 >> >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_4154_25073513.1365403869540 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:23:08 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

On Saturday, September 2= 2, 2012 9:04:40 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
Am 22.09.2012 19:02, schrieb Ian Johnson:
> {mi viska lo plise noi farlu}. With some more twiddling you can fo= rce=20
> simultaneity if you care about it.

Or just "mi viska lo nu lo plise cu farlu".

Hey, yes and no. That's the point. If = lo se viska can be an abstraction then my new gismu work. If not then I'll = have to revert back to less backward-compatible 3-argument predicates. Both= my suggestions can be found on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/B= PFK+Section:+sensory+gismu


Is zgana2 an abstraction place or not?

Anyway, here is the table of what we have.

te jvinu se jvinu = jvinu

viska se viska
te skari skari skari

tirn= a se tirna=
se sanc= e sance
k= rixa se k= rixa

sumne se sumne
te panci se panci panci

se vrusi vrusi

=
te palpi se palpi = palpi
rufsu

te smaka se smaka smaka
se kukte kukte


{smaka} (taste) and {palpi} (palpable = surface) are experimental words. We can clearly see that it is possible to = regularise the structure of all this stuff.
The question is what = solution to choose? 3-place solution seems to be the best one but it requir= es the third column to be an abstraction. Like
{mi te jvinu lo tc= adu lo ka jibni lo cmana}. Besides, 3rd column of visual channel is not fil= led. Is {jvinu} restricted to visual channel? If so then no questions here.=
For audio channel {te sance} might be a good solution.

I think this whole issue is something that can be fixed wit= hout breaking much backward compatibility.

 <= /div>

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

do=E1=BB=8B m=C3=A8lbi mlen=C3=AC'u
    .i do c=C3=A0tlu ki'u
ma fe la x=C3=A0mpre =C5=ADu
    .i do t=C3=ACnsa c=C3=A0rmi
gi'e s=C3=ACrji se t=C3=A0rmi
    .i ta=E1=BB=8B bo pu c=C3=ACtka lo gr=C3=A0na ku

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