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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 07:32:21 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: "Any" and {ro}
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

a. da fonta'a .i ko smadi lo du'u da mokau
> b. mi tirna da .iku'i na ga'ezga da makau
> c. do troci tu'a lo drata .ei selzva
> d. xu da jungau do de tu?
> e. ganai da'i do viska da gizibo ko jungau mi (this doesn't parse, and I'm
> not
> sure where to put "zibo")
> g. la .djan. na viska da
> h. mi jinvi lodu'u noda djuno le danfu
> i. roda zo'u le banxa cu rivbi lo nu jdice da
> j. roda zo'u curmi lo nu do cinba da
> l. lo'e gerku cu se tuple voda


While I won't protest in general about stretching the CLL's extremely vague
rule about how {da} scope behaves with {.i} in the absence of an ijek,
there's some other problems with this:

a. da fonta'a .i ko smadi lo du'u da mokau

Since ordinarily this would bind da in the du'u-scope, I'm skeptical as to
whether you can stretch the rule without an ijek here. I'm also not sure
what ijek would fix the job, and not sure whether {lo go'i} is actually
sensible when the previous x1 is {da}.

h. mi jinvi lodu'u noda djuno le danfu

Depending on context this could be a problem, but that's really just having
to do with {le danfu} (this one's not that bad really). This also makes
sense, with somewhat different semantics, with {na jinvi lo du'u da ...},
and is arguably closer to the original that way.

i. roda zo'u le banxa cu rivbi lo nu jdice da

This is just wrong, even under unrestrictive models of {da}. {le banxa} is
certainly in {ro da} in this context. That is, the most lax model of {da} I
know of that actually makes sense includes everything that is actually in
the current context in {ro da}. This gives you {le banxa cu rivbi lo nu
jdice vo'a} which is absurd. I'm not sure what a legitimately good fix for
this is, because you need some kind of a restriction on the {da}. {ro da
poi co'e} seems like a copout, {ro da poi ka'e se jdice} seems clumsy if
not sketchy for other reasons

 j. roda zo'u curmi lo nu do cinba da

Same as the previous, though the justification feels significantly more
pedantic in this case.

 l. lo'e gerku cu se tuple voda

sei mi na pante This one's actually better than the original, because the
original is of course false; in fact I would have trouble interpreting the
original as generic.


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 11:06 PM, Pierre Abbat=A0<span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" target=3D"_blank">phm=
a@bezitopo.org</a>&gt;</span>=A0wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1=
px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
a. da fonta&#39;a .i ko smadi lo du&#39;u da mokau<br>b. mi tirna da .iku&#=
39;i na ga&#39;ezga da makau<br>c. do troci tu&#39;a lo drata .ei selzva<br=
>d. xu da jungau do de tu?<br>e. ganai da&#39;i do viska da gizibo ko junga=
u mi (this doesn&#39;t parse, and I&#39;m not<br>
sure where to put &quot;zibo&quot;)<br>g. la .djan. na viska da<br>h. mi ji=
nvi lodu&#39;u noda djuno le danfu<br>i. roda zo&#39;u le banxa cu rivbi lo=
 nu jdice da<br>j. roda zo&#39;u curmi lo nu do cinba da<br>l. lo&#39;e ger=
ku cu se tuple voda</blockquote>
<div><br></div>While I won&#39;t protest in general about stretching the CL=
L&#39;s extremely vague rule about how {da} scope behaves with {.i} in the =
absence of an ijek, there&#39;s some other problems with this:<div><br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">a. da fonta&#39;a .i ko smadi lo du&#39;u da mokau</=
blockquote>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">Since ordinarily this wou=
ld bind da in the du&#39;u-scope, I&#39;m skeptical as to whether you can s=
tretch the rule without an ijek here. I&#39;m also not sure what ijek would=
 fix the job, and not sure whether {lo go&#39;i} is actually sensible when =
the previous x1 is {da}.</span><br>
</div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
h. mi jinvi lodu&#39;u noda djuno le danfu</blockquote><div style>Depending=
 on context this could be a problem, but that&#39;s really just having to d=
o with {le danfu} (this one&#39;s not that bad really). This also makes sen=
se, with somewhat different semantics, with {na jinvi lo du&#39;u da ...}, =
and is arguably closer to the original that way.</div>
<div style><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">i. roda zo&#39;u le banxa cu rivbi lo=
 nu jdice da</blockquote>
<div style>This is just wrong, even under unrestrictive models of {da}. {le=
 banxa} is certainly in {ro da} in this context. That is, the most lax mode=
l of {da} I know of that actually makes sense includes everything that is a=
ctually in the current context in {ro da}. This gives you {le banxa cu rivb=
i lo nu jdice vo&#39;a} which is absurd. I&#39;m not sure what a legitimate=
ly good fix for this is, because you need some kind of a restriction on the=
 {da}. {ro da poi co&#39;e} seems like a copout, {ro da poi ka&#39;e se jdi=
ce} seems clumsy if not sketchy for other reasons</div>
<div style><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=A0j. roda zo&#39;u curmi lo nu do ci=
nba da</blockquote>
<div style>Same as the previous, though the justification feels significant=
ly more pedantic in this case.</div><div style><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0l. lo&#39;e gerku cu se tuple voda</blockquote><div style>sei mi na pant=
e This one&#39;s actually better than the original, because the original is=
 of course false; in fact I would have trouble interpreting the original as=
 generic.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>=A0</div><div style><font face=3D"arial, sa=
ns-serif">mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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