Received: from mail-ob0-f190.google.com ([209.85.214.190]:37991) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UPdHm-0001lw-10 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:28:54 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f190.google.com with SMTP id uy19sf1606525obc.17 for ; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pt395FXTQBTWFdg48M+qPWfFmNHlLZuCDgXVS+1ihTs=; b=D+DLvB3UlHUWeY2tpVGgLgx1jomoj2XNNMHdAL+CCaEd2h1UXNpjo7Mx3g5r1TnP1V w6NqLiHqqviUrnfGg81ZEs8NVpemlq4F4+Etsuy45GN2XfDGZ+2psSVrMnccVotoOB6J eVd0aGYPq/hWuANt9R1mBP5FQDIdM83iqUQGDTyuP4OSLGAAJo3WxEZsBiTov04j5FJU b1JKeiLvZA1UQnHoaHULPkazi5ByXIP78B4XvHj4iva4OrEoXMAfvaQIkzrsBCISsa1d vj3zriiv2ORSlAHs80HYsG1Cnb/YHB/gMze4f0CQbV/5MndJOxCD7kXB4VK95Y//Vo5n mALA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pt395FXTQBTWFdg48M+qPWfFmNHlLZuCDgXVS+1ihTs=; b=GJIg/AzCMEx8lbBMQerMzWpegXPJbS2O79ST176XCFHEAAzKdGi8sJK4AKH1ZtX501 JhQti/Ftv74ig1kx+O/rWiHaIZa2UAHPZ+GPCihIaZHlWZ4v8m6QT/8xDmsPhfzA+Mhs y9zmLe6b5mRnMo+h9g/t06WwJqT1i7E9BefUWmdMZY/gJeRRT6niT8GRP9HOc2178vBR N8X9FzkT2vHbPXlek/J6pAcuz+xFf5PPb5tkYJO0v7jUFhC3rXCSw7eGUVWEH7n/1sZN 0k0TgDIr6fcTU9/crjqvPdNeDYz1+HBjdc+4HLRLWhgtPyAHQfNlBXE40sh2OHx+ze2J oHew== X-Received: by 10.49.127.200 with SMTP id ni8mr2275476qeb.42.1365532123680; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.130.200 with SMTP id og8ls3687304qeb.61.gmail; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.98.65 with SMTP id eg1mr285183qeb.2.1365532123079; Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:28:42 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <4e7c968b-5729-4c45-938b-5d0dc3e7f021@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: [lojban] Re: Final state of cenba/zenba/etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_573_25572315.1365532122816" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_573_25572315.1365532122816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:53:47 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote: > > > Today I wanted to say "liquid water freezes when its temperature is > decreased to 273 K" and "solid water melts when its temperature is > increased to 273 K" and then quickly realized that {cenba} and friends > don't have a final state place. {galfi} does, but is causal, which isn't > really what's desired here. It has the undesirable "concrete binxo" > undertones, too. Just {co'a} here isn't good enough, either; part of the > point is that its temperature was higher (resp. lower) before and was > decreased (resp. increased) to cause the phase transition. > > Any ideas? Also, why is the resultative/causal distinction made explicit > in the notes, but only 3 of the 4 permutations of the concept have gismu? > Actually once i even suggested to robin to detach them into (causal+non-causal) * (agentive+nonagentive). Seems that it's even necessary. I suggest if there are any doubts of whether a gismu is agentive or not is to use it as non-agentive and optionally add {gau}/{-gau-}/{gasnu} when needed. > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_573_25572315.1365532122816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:53:47 PM UTC+4, Latro wrote:

Today I wanted = to say "liquid water freezes when its temperature is decreased to 273 K" an= d "solid water melts when its temperature is increased to 273 K" and then q= uickly realized that {cenba} and friends don't have a final state place. {g= alfi} does, but is causal, which isn't really what's desired here. It has t= he undesirable "concrete binxo" undertones, too. Just {co'a} here isn't goo= d enough, either; part of the point is that its temperature was higher (res= p. lower) before and was decreased (resp. increased) to cause the phase tra= nsition.

Any ideas? Also, why is the resultative/causal distinction m= ade explicit in the notes, but only 3 of the 4 permutations of the concept = have gismu?

Actually once i= even suggested to robin to detach them into (causal+non-causal) * (agentiv= e+nonagentive).
Seems that it's even necessary.
I sugge= st if there are any doubts of whether a gismu is agentive or not is to use = it as non-agentive and optionally add {gau}/{-gau-}/{gasnu} when needed.


mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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