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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:27:17 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgKS7-R2x0nq+23mQZbDb6VwjYp8tdBzExKW0j54dJPRng@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Final state of cenba/zenba/etc.
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:07 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> But there is no number in most predicates, for example {xendo} or {melbi}.
> {ni}'s role then is to introduce a number. {co'e ma kau} can hardly be
> called a solution.

There's no number pertinent to {xendo} or {melbi}, so there's no reason to
introduce one. You can talk about "extent" for those, but that is not
sufficiently precisely quantified to get a number.

> And that's exactly the kind of {ni} I don't like. I base {ni} entirely on
> {klani}. Your vague {ni} is unlike anything in the language, but maybe you
> can show me a Lojban definition of it.
>
For me it's a primitive, like {nu}, which describes "extent" of bridi for
which this makes sense. {.i lo solri lo lunra cu zmadu lo ni ce'u carmi}.
{.i lo mamta lo patfu cu zmadu lo ni ce'u xendo}. {.i lo speni cu zenba lo
ni ce'u xendo lo panzi be lo speni be vo'a}. etc.

>
>
>
>  It's not a number, at least not typically
>> (in my view it never is, since there's no clear rule for when it can and
>> can't be and whether it is or isn't has a marked impact on semantics.)
>>
>
> For me it's always a number.

Can you come up with an example where there definitely is a number that's
pertinent but where the number doesn't fill any place involved in the
bridi? (Not necessarily a place of the top selbri, it could be nested). The
only examples I can readily think of are (number,unit) pairs, which can be
replaced by ma kau in straightforward ways as above. For examples, {ni ce'u
glare [kei lo si'o kelvo]} -> {ka ce'u kelvo ma kau}; {ni ce'u clani [kei
lo si'o mitre]} -> {ka ce'u mitre (clatre, really) ma kau}.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:07 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

But there is no number in most predicates, for example {xendo} or {melbi}. =
{ni}&#39;s role then is to introduce a number. {co&#39;e ma kau} can hardly=
 be called a solution.</blockquote><div style>There&#39;s no number pertine=
nt to {xendo} or {melbi}, so there&#39;s no reason to introduce one. You ca=
n talk about &quot;extent&quot; for those, but that is not sufficiently pre=
cisely quantified to get a number.</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34)">And that&#39;s exactly the kind of {ni} I don&#39;t like. I base =
{ni} entirely on {klani}. Your vague {ni} is unlike anything in the languag=
e, but maybe you can show me a Lojban definition of it.</span></div>
</blockquote><div style>For me it&#39;s a primitive, like {nu}, which descr=
ibes &quot;extent&quot; of bridi for which this makes sense. {.i lo solri l=
o lunra cu zmadu lo ni ce&#39;u carmi}. {.i lo mamta lo patfu cu zmadu lo n=
i ce&#39;u xendo}. {.i lo speni cu zenba lo ni ce&#39;u xendo lo panzi be l=
o speni be vo&#39;a}. etc.</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br></div><div class=3D"im=
"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It&#39;s not a number, at least not typically<br>
(in my view it never is, since there&#39;s no clear rule for when it can an=
d<br>
can&#39;t be and whether it is or isn&#39;t has a marked impact on semantic=
s.)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
For me it&#39;s always a number.</blockquote><div style>Can you come up wit=
h an example where there definitely is a number that&#39;s pertinent but wh=
ere the number doesn&#39;t fill any place involved in the bridi? (Not neces=
sarily a place of the top selbri, it could be nested). The only examples I =
can readily think of are (number,unit) pairs, which can be replaced by ma k=
au in straightforward ways as above. For examples, {ni ce&#39;u glare [kei =
lo si&#39;o kelvo]} -&gt; {ka ce&#39;u kelvo ma kau}; {ni ce&#39;u clani [k=
ei lo si&#39;o mitre]} -&gt; {ka ce&#39;u mitre (clatre, really) ma kau}.</=
div>
<div style><br></div><div style>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</div></div=
><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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