Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 <14687729.GbGBzrIqFe@caracal>
Subject: Re: [lojban] for Pierre: puffins
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On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:00:44 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 09:48:49 John E Clifford wrote:=20
> > Someone elsewhere asked about puffins in various conlangs.  Lojban=20
> doesn't=20
> > have 'em at the moment, but I volunteered cpifratercula or=20
> cipnyfratercula,=20
> > subject to getting the phonotactics right.  Corrections and improvement=
s=20
> > please. (little brothers of the Great Auk or some religious order with=
=20
> > similar cloaks, though clearly not Franciscans?)=20
>
> Type 3: cipnrfraterkula.=20
> Type 4: fraterkula.=20
> "cpifraterkula" is not a type-3 but a type-4; type 4 consists of a rafsi=
=20
> ending in a consonant, an interfix r/n/l, and a foreign part beginning in=
=20
> a=20
> consonant. That's from the scientific name, which means "small (female)=
=20
> brother" (see http://curioustaxonomy.net/etym/transl.html). I've been out=
=20
> looking at trucks today and just saw the email and haven't looked for=20
> names in=20
> other languages.=20
>
> On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 13:51:51 John E Clifford wrote:=20
> > c/k is an aesthetic choice here, the one for sound (though c is no more=
=20
> > stably /k/ in Late Latin than in other languages) one for look (which i=
s=20
> > stable).=20
>
> "c" before "u" either stayed /k/ or became /g/ in all Romance languages a=
s=20
> far=20
> as I know offhand. It's before "e" and "i" that it turned into /kj/, then=
=20
> /tsj/, then various sounds including /t=CA=83/. Also "c" before "a" somet=
imes=20
> became /=CA=83/ in French.


Well, Clifford was clear in what he said imo.
Either we use pronunciation of latin words or their form.
Of course {fratercula}  is weird. But at least we know how this word is=20
written in Latin.
This method doesnt solve all the problems here though.

How to transliterate Latin "y"? As {i}? Then we lose something again.

Anyway I dont believe that the existence of "fratercula" in Latin allows=20
the existence of "fraterkula".
"k" was used in Classic Latin only for words borrowed from Greek *sei mi=20
morji.*


>
> Pierre=20
> --=20
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa=20
>
>

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<br><br>On Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:00:44 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 09:4=
8:49 John E Clifford wrote:
<br>&gt; Someone elsewhere asked about puffins in various conlangs. &nbsp;L=
ojban doesn't
<br>&gt; have 'em at the moment, but I volunteered cpifratercula or cipnyfr=
atercula,
<br>&gt; subject to getting the phonotactics right. &nbsp;Corrections and i=
mprovements
<br>&gt; please. (little brothers of the Great Auk or some religious order =
with
<br>&gt; similar cloaks, though clearly not Franciscans?)
<br>
<br>Type 3: cipnrfraterkula.
<br>Type 4: fraterkula.
<br>"cpifraterkula" is not a type-3 but a type-4; type 4 consists of a rafs=
i=20
<br>ending in a consonant, an interfix r/n/l, and a foreign part beginning =
in a=20
<br>consonant. That's from the scientific name, which means "small (female)=
=20
<br>brother" (see <a href=3D"http://curioustaxonomy.net/etym/transl.html" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://curioustaxonomy.net/<wbr>etym/transl.html</a>). I'v=
e been out=20
<br>looking at trucks today and just saw the email and haven't looked for n=
ames in=20
<br>other languages.
<br>
<br>On Tuesday, April 09, 2013 13:51:51 John E Clifford wrote:
<br>&gt; c/k is an aesthetic choice here, the one for sound (though c is no=
 more
<br>&gt; stably /k/ in Late Latin than in other languages) one for look (wh=
ich is
<br>&gt; stable).
<br>
<br>"c" before "u" either stayed /k/ or became /g/ in all Romance languages=
 as far=20
<br>as I know offhand. It's before "e" and "i" that it turned into /kj/, th=
en=20
<br>/tsj/, then various sounds including /t=CA=83/. Also "c" before "a" som=
etimes=20
<br>became /=CA=83/ in French.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, Cliffo=
rd was clear in what he said imo.</div><div>Either we use pronunciation of =
latin words or their form.</div><div>Of course {fratercula} &nbsp;is weird.=
 But at least we know how this word is written in Latin.</div><div>This met=
hod doesnt solve all the problems here though.</div><div><br></div><div>How=
 to transliterate Latin "y"? As {i}? Then we lose something again.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Anyway I dont believe that the existence of "fratercula" i=
n Latin allows the existence of "fraterkula".</div><div>"k" was used in Cla=
ssic Latin only for words borrowed from Greek <i>sei mi morji.</i></div><di=
v><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-lef=
t: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>Pierre
<br>--=20
<br>li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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