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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:35:41 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] nu+roi question
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>wro=
te:

>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrot=
e:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>=
wrote:
>>
>>> Suppose you belong to a fight club that meets every weekend for knockou=
t
>>> tournaments where the loser in each match is eliminated and does not go=
 on
>>> to fight in the next round. Suppose I'm a fan of yours. Then I can say =
"I
>>> hate when you fight once", because that means you were eliminated in th=
e
>>> first round, and as your fan I want you to reach the finals, i.e. I lov=
e it
>>> when you fight many times.
>>>
>> Perhaps it is more natlang influence than anything else, but such a
>> description feels rather incomplete; I would have trouble taking the
>> meaning you're suggesting from the phrasing you're suggesting.
>>
>
> I'm not sure which part you find unconvincing. It may very well be the
> "once" part that makes you hate something happening once.
>
Because of the possibility of plurals as I said. I see {lo nu pa roi broda}
as "an event of broda happening once", and {lo nu so'o roi broda} as being
{loi [so'o] nu pa roi broda}, more or less. Most events as we conceive of
them are of this sort, albeit not explicitly so. The others, such as ones
which are ongoing and therefore have no notion of how many times they
happen, are perhaps more accurately called "states" or similar.

>
>
>
>> I also feel like there's some opacity here, because events of you
>> fighting more than once are made up of events of you fighting once. That
>> is, when you're in a fight club and fight more than once, you can just
>> split them up into several events of fighting more than once, each of wh=
ich
>> you hate, so naturally you should hate the collective. va'i you're sort =
of
>> opening up the abstractor in a way that you really shouldn't be able to =
do
>> in order to get the meaning you want.
>>
>
> "N roi" always needs an (implicit or explicit) interval in which the time=
s
> are counted. In my example, the implicit interval was each weekend. You c=
an
> always make it more precise, at the usual price of using more words. "I
> hate it when you fight once (in a weekend)".
>
I don't think that changes much when you consider the plurality of the {lo
nu} sumti; shift the interval around the right way and you get what I am
thinking of. Using the ROI sumtcita functionality could probably achieve
what you're thinking of less ambiguously, however; assuming it magically
does what you're thinking is probably why I thought this was "incomplete"
in the first place.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjl=
lambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:=
42 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 a=
t 7:53 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllamb=
ias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Suppose you belong to a fight club that mee=
ts every weekend for knockout tournaments where the loser in each match is =
eliminated and does not go on to fight in the next round. Suppose I&#39;m a=
 fan of yours. Then I can say &quot;I hate when you fight once&quot;, becau=
se that means you were eliminated in the first round, and as your fan I wan=
t you to reach the finals, i.e. I love it when you fight many times.</div>


</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Perhaps it is more natlang influe=
nce than anything else, but such a description feels rather incomplete; I w=
ould have trouble taking the meaning you&#39;re suggesting from the phrasin=
g you&#39;re suggesting.</div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I&#39;m not sure w=
hich part you find unconvincing. It may very well be the &quot;once&quot; p=
art that makes you hate something happening once.</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote><div style>Because of the possibility of plurals as I said. I =
see {lo nu pa roi broda} as &quot;an event of broda happening once&quot;, a=
nd {lo nu so&#39;o roi broda} as being {loi [so&#39;o] nu pa roi broda}, mo=
re or less. Most events as we conceive of them are of this sort, albeit not=
 explicitly so. The others, such as ones which are ongoing and therefore ha=
ve no notion of how many times they happen, are perhaps more accurately cal=
led &quot;states&quot; or similar.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"><div><br></div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>I also feel like t=
here&#39;s some opacity here, because events of you fighting more than once=
 are made up of events of you fighting once. That is, when you&#39;re in a =
fight club and fight more than once, you can just split them up into severa=
l events of fighting more than once, each of which you hate, so naturally y=
ou should hate the collective. va&#39;i you&#39;re sort of opening up the a=
bstractor in a way that you really shouldn&#39;t be able to do in order to =
get the meaning you want.</div>


</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra">&quot;N roi&quot; always needs an (implicit or explicit) interval in w=
hich the times are counted. In my example, the implicit interval was each w=
eekend. You can always make it more precise, at the usual price of using mo=
re words. &quot;I hate it when you fight once (in a weekend)&quot;.=A0</div=
>
</div></blockquote><div style>I don&#39;t think that changes much when you =
consider the plurality of the {lo nu} sumti; shift the interval around the =
right way and you get what I am thinking of. Using the ROI sumtcita functio=
nality could probably achieve what you&#39;re thinking of less ambiguously,=
 however; assuming it magically does what you&#39;re thinking is probably w=
hy I thought this was &quot;incomplete&quot; in the first place.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</div></div=
></div></div>

<p></p>

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