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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:11:58 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] nu+roi question
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote=
:

> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>w=
rote:
>
>> Suppose you belong to a fight club that meets every weekend for knockout
>> tournaments where the loser in each match is eliminated and does not go =
on
>> to fight in the next round. Suppose I'm a fan of yours. Then I can say "=
I
>> hate when you fight once", because that means you were eliminated in the
>> first round, and as your fan I want you to reach the finals, i.e. I love=
 it
>> when you fight many times.
>>
> Perhaps it is more natlang influence than anything else, but such a
> description feels rather incomplete; I would have trouble taking the
> meaning you're suggesting from the phrasing you're suggesting.
>

I'm not sure which part you find unconvincing. It may very well be the
"once" part that makes you hate something happening once.


> I also feel like there's some opacity here, because events of you fightin=
g
> more than once are made up of events of you fighting once. That is, when
> you're in a fight club and fight more than once, you can just split them =
up
> into several events of fighting more than once, each of which you hate, s=
o
> naturally you should hate the collective. va'i you're sort of opening up
> the abstractor in a way that you really shouldn't be able to do in order =
to
> get the meaning you want.
>

"N roi" always needs an (implicit or explicit) interval in which the times
are counted. In my example, the implicit interval was each weekend. You can
always make it more precise, at the usual price of using more words. "I
hate it when you fight once (in a weekend)".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On Wed, A=
pr 17, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"i=
m">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Suppose you belong to a fight club that mee=
ts every weekend for knockout tournaments where the loser in each match is =
eliminated and does not go on to fight in the next round. Suppose I&#39;m a=
 fan of yours. Then I can say &quot;I hate when you fight once&quot;, becau=
se that means you were eliminated in the first round, and as your fan I wan=
t you to reach the finals, i.e. I love it when you fight many times.</div>


</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Perhaps it is more natlang influe=
nce than anything else, but such a description feels rather incomplete; I w=
ould have trouble taking the meaning you&#39;re suggesting from the phrasin=
g you&#39;re suggesting.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I&#39;m not sure w=
hich part you find unconvincing. It may very well be the &quot;once&quot; p=
art that makes you hate something happening once.</div><div style><br></div=
>
<div style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>I also feel =
like there&#39;s some opacity here, because events of you fighting more tha=
n once are made up of events of you fighting once. That is, when you&#39;re=
 in a fight club and fight more than once, you can just split them up into =
several events of fighting more than once, each of which you hate, so natur=
ally you should hate the collective. va&#39;i you&#39;re sort of opening up=
 the abstractor in a way that you really shouldn&#39;t be able to do in ord=
er to get the meaning you want.</div>

</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" s=
tyle>&quot;N roi&quot; always needs an (implicit or explicit) interval in w=
hich the times are counted. In my example, the implicit interval was each w=
eekend. You can always make it more precise, at the usual price of using mo=
re words. &quot;I hate it when you fight once (in a weekend)&quot;.=A0</div=
>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra" style><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style=
>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" style><br></div><=
/div>

<p></p>

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