Received: from mail-qe0-f57.google.com ([209.85.128.57]:46472) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UT7ZI-0004Do-Ow for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:30 -0700 Received: by mail-qe0-f57.google.com with SMTP id 1sf1270268qee.2 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NUJZMoZXzGSxIp8VfOsbIpGoEZHWPNS4GHnp0yfdRpw=; b=CUkJ79XnM/7eYPIMFseirYOV7HgKPR98Tw8N57+QRlLt6YHXw3LD28teOgiRYt6OFs 2N9lg5Qk9mjd2n+GSPWQM68gsvaxEb9KsIHJJCFbcLjYpPoI9dSirL3qxLxTzVdBlvo4 sTLmEzvrw9ynNJqeR+u3rtbldMyjj0r29VWdhh48/Bx4L5iHXh3nBwi8mlcuHFd9Pkov qegR5KofvnomKcmAwTZZaxa0l9qBb9zCkLR/6yTf+zvJqFpp4rBTfM6DpAnyegVN1qMg /TkoYRsAnWmTAp6KIxLGaOlV3ezijJgcqV6v/T8dIzMtXJ6xIaoVBpnz8BiK9OTyRpjv LJ7w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NUJZMoZXzGSxIp8VfOsbIpGoEZHWPNS4GHnp0yfdRpw=; b=fC7gIb/ThJFdDl6GH6ZRYPqHl8sV5DEijKe5jWN+34u4pSAfiI3nxbZQMzmktfmCr3 wZRJ84PpYxZjV2cDzWja8B3yFPvJ/cXd16RNf+rrdlKU2H95TIB5/sFqhRV0gc5yo/Iw w8W/nJIcTVB9cH+L+3hIl4fFP7ZeV6Kz4OYdW+CthiasuqLN78m7qajwcx6FY4f1dEob CAAod3Kj7u8GRBB/fYbs+PRReoOxiPg+Dxs9lWTFEvdjtvHmOvmHXkz3vHfqLUnSsPSO VuXNJcUUGh9w7p6SGFPqGI9edovuZEUsQZ6KYz50sCkHmLJLj9oAZKcwRlUovkbUl09c +mVg== X-Received: by 10.49.103.135 with SMTP id fw7mr1436347qeb.38.1366363514106; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.71.37 with SMTP id r5ls1824056qeu.15.gmail; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.60.170 with SMTP id i10mr1444406qer.41.1366363512601; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:25:10 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6af67de9-ce70-4e20-af69-a1acc87a840f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] 5 classes of sumti in Lojban and about a new word for "grammatical abstraction" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_772_27868119.1366363510329" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_772_27868119.1366363510329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: for historical record: this 5-way distinction was first heard by me from tsani. it's not mine. mine is *lo si'o apstrake*. The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represented indirectly, > e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}. > > This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno words. Is this usage > correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, then the type of > pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, there is type > opaqueness in pipno2. > pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even tried to guess what it could mean) > {.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise .imi citka lo selpli} > well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinction is worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both. > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, Ian Johnson < blindb...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to > call ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the > apstrake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm > uncertain that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle > because of the {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by > themselves to me. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki < > gleki.is...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2 >> >> All lojban constructs can be divided either to >> {apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku} >> or {naly'apstrake}: {namcu}, {dacti}. >> >> Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {apstrake}. Alternatives are {astrato} >> (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Mandarin chou1xiang4}. >> >> {sucta} has been misused for this concept. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To post to this group, send email to >> loj...@googlegroups.com . >> Visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> For more options, visit >> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_772_27868119.1366363510329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
for historical record: this 5-way distinction was first heard b= y me from tsani. it's not mine. mine is lo si'o apstrake.
=
<= div>
The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represented ind= irectly, e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}. 
This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno words. Is th= is usage correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, then the= type of pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, there is = type opaqueness in pipno2.

pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even tr= ied to guess what it could mean)
 
{.i mi pilno zo= coi .i mi pilno lo plise .imi citka lo selpli}

well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'ap= strake distinction is worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both.=

 

On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, I= an Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Technically = you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to call ni abstra= ctors (which are also functions), both of which are in the apstrake categor= y naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm uncertain that selsku= is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle because of the {se du'u} = indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by themselves to me.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki &l= t;gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2

All = lojban constructs can be divided either to 
{apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku}
or {naly'apstrake}: {= namcu}, {dacti}.

Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {ap= strake}. Alternatives are {astrato} (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Manda= rin chou1xiang4}.

{sucta} has been misused for this concept.
<= font color=3D"#888888">

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