Received: from mail-qe0-f62.google.com ([209.85.128.62]:60530) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UTASl-0005Ga-Kh for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:55 -0700 Received: by mail-qe0-f62.google.com with SMTP id 9sf206129qea.7 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=INVYRbLOGjJQj0++Cxnu8Le80MlvuCid0Phs7AFUfOk=; b=f+AnOLQUVXKaLs78w9hlk/AHbH7j8FVXDMJkH5EpuzMvPxVxDWKQ/dnQuNatjhwYwJ x84X5Xpfwesr1oXv6A4KrH2Wh1szqUTmoyiuasLq1y1ycvLUNw7fUtvyhEg03ss7FvuS qntfjnsg2Yp1xwjX2bm9TED41RTRT8MBT9Y0dmpRs2XGJL7YSyLk0Z1UD5iGSQH7ZTdp m0SaYCsdoWyBvd3i3loz++TibwNLxCSyE6ewlkBAntQVx2sgM93ab5J42eKVTH4zAVGA rA0xElNVOD4sJ6WnLzzNNR79j6W9igwiMZQo+aP2NcISzCS8E35bXfhcs8Coq3r70OEF zvCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:x-received :mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=INVYRbLOGjJQj0++Cxnu8Le80MlvuCid0Phs7AFUfOk=; b=z0e/t4sAKBr+mQTXpsmM9mjRVE4kQmMngnV946+MQ2b1fXBW7B4EHRGHqE0QKzwTJD qevfJiPWKy0wtOAEMPFiW3PtlC9Ndt+2f9/msuisrgqHzzuAaQNVEKGWzhUU7EbFq3CF 6FzJD7AJf5Jt/QbI7GEqbYOzST0MbOJ/luPGFwmjj045l1ynj0phwoz0nbW9o2Jgt3Z9 AB03KJ9RlHhix34d1a5pTBGkhtJsUmzX3xFbH0Posy8HaSX0sVTESSiY7oZFFwJgHriu 2X/vwlEWEcn67e8ANZJ5SUKWP6aod8qimYDn8UHIG0F6dL5VQkrvUY6mgOaF60AyhVYD jRxQ== X-Received: by 10.49.121.200 with SMTP id lm8mr1450305qeb.5.1366374641286; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.0.40 with SMTP id 8ls74939qeb.65.gmail; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.137.3 with SMTP id qe3mr5980623veb.10.1366374639776; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-x236.google.com (mail-vb0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c02::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id zc17si2140427vdb.3.2013.04.19.05.30.39 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c02::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c02::236; Received: by mail-vb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id w16so3580042vbf.27 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.67.72 with SMTP id l8mr3321580vdt.119.1366374639351; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.103.131 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:30:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6af67de9-ce70-4e20-af69-a1acc87a840f@googlegroups.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:30:19 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] 5 classes of sumti in Lojban and about a new word for "grammatical abstraction" To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c02::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d002a023e0304dab5e30d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf307d002a023e0304dab5e30d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 19 April 2013 05:25, la gleki wrote: > > > On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > > for historical record: this 5-way distinction was first heard by me from > tsani. it's not mine. mine is *lo si'o apstrake*. > > The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represented indirectly, >> e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}. >> >> This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno words. Is this usage >> correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, then the type of >> pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, there is type >> opaqueness in pipno2. >> > > pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even > tried to guess what it could mean) > Haha, I wrote that last response on my iPod, and for some reason, it wants pipno instead of pilno. I guess this one slipped through. > > >> {.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise .imi citka lo selpli} >> > > well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinction is > worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both. > > > It's not that quotations can be both. It's simply that they form a grammatical class to themselves, distinct from any other. Text is abstract in that it doesn't have physical representations in our world. It's a construct of the mind and without something to interpret what's on the paper or the screen, it's just a very regular-looking picture. On the other hand, text is far more concrete than a bridi or event, in the sense that it isn't bounded in time or space or have any other, more complicated interactions with other grammatical constructs. That's why I don't like your separation into apstrake/naly'apstrake; it isn't worthwhile. Somethings can be construed as both, and the distinction you're trying to make doesn't advance our understanding of Lojban. On the other hand, classifying sumti into five (or six) classes is more worthwhile, because that distinction is more meaningful. You can put dacti in namcu places, and you can't put bridi in selsku places. More directed at latro'a: is it sensible to roll together bridi and fancu, in the sense that bridi are simply parameterless fancu? It reduces the number of classes to five, and when beta-reducing, it's what happens usually. (Sometimes the beta-reduction leads to a nu... Maybe we should think about that some more.) .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >> Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to >> call ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the >> apstrake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm >> uncertain that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle >> because of the {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by >> themselves to me. >> >> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki wrote: >> >>> apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2 >>> >>> All lojban constructs can be divided either to >>> {apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku} >>> or {naly'apstrake}: {namcu}, {dacti}. >>> >>> Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {apstrake}. Alternatives are {astrato} >>> (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Mandarin chou1xiang4}. >>> >>> {sucta} has been misused for this concept. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en >> . >> For more options, visit >> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >> . >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --20cf307d002a023e0304dab5e30d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On 19 April 2013 05:25, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:


On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10= PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

for historical record: this 5-wa= y distinction was first heard by me from tsani. it's not mine. mine is = lo si'o apstrake.

The thing about selsku is that some text cannot = be represented indirectly, e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}.= =A0

This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno word= s. Is this usage correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, = then the type of pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwis= e, there is type opaqueness in pipno2.

pilno2, not pipno2 (u= 9;i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even tried to guess what it c= ould mean)

Haha, I wrote = that last response on my iPod, and for some reason, it wants pipno instead = of pilno. I guess this one slipped through.
=A0
= =A0
{.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise= .imi citka lo selpli}

well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinct= ion is worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both.

=A0

I= t's not that quotations can be both. It's simply that they form a g= rammatical class to themselves, distinct from any other. Text is abstract i= n that it doesn't have physical representations in our world. It's = a construct of the mind and without something to interpret what's on th= e paper or the screen, it's just a very regular-looking picture. On the= other hand, text is far more concrete than a bridi or event, in the sense = that it isn't bounded in time or space or have any other, more complica= ted interactions with other grammatical constructs.

That's why I don't like your separation i= nto apstrake/naly'apstrake; it isn't worthwhile. Somethings can be = construed as both, and the distinction you're trying to make doesn'= t advance our understanding of Lojban. On the other hand, classifying sumti= into five (or six) classes is more worthwhile, because that distinction is= more meaningful. You can put dacti in namcu places, and you can't put = bridi in selsku places.

More directed at latro'a: is it sensibl= e to roll together bridi and fancu, in the sense that bridi are simply para= meterless fancu? It reduces the number of classes to five, and when beta-re= ducing, it's what happens usually. (Sometimes the beta-reduction leads = to a nu... Maybe we should think about that some more.)

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
=A0=

On Apr 17, 2013, a= t 20:45, Ian Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr"> Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to ca= ll ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the apst= rake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm uncer= tain that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle becau= se of the {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by = themselves to me.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

<= br>
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:= 05 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.co= m> wrote:
apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x= 2

All lojban constructs can be divided either to=A0
{apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku}
or {naly'apstrake= }: {namcu}, {dacti}.

Unfortunately JVS doesnt like= {apstrake}. Alternatives are {astrato} (from Italian) or tcosiango {from M= andarin chou1xiang4}.

{sucta} has been misused for this concept.
<= span>

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. =A0
=A0

--
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=A0

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=A0
=A0

--
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--20cf307d002a023e0304dab5e30d--