Received: from mail-wi0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]:49855) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UTCX8-0006sH-Rq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:38 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f186.google.com with SMTP id hq12sf117768wib.23 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7WI7e2rKqpzb7FAzKOim15y9AHUfmZ8fQ+BEkpaAQnk=; b=R7JDiRaJomDMXnOJUBQuxA8RYZP1FWrSTdy0t1noWcLHGRfNXbMmBnn1xdwhJZQUYi g6lkHQF2dFNC/c/S+xc1wJRnBurxJebqmPEXsVbUP6Cj+QUrlh27nI1x67K8taAxbwv4 Grvxby80ElNEFRH9/rYeYgoJdQ/p+z6aWlFDF3gQB82ekB6pwKUNwYHrCxJkMViZRvBL k1UMI/2TIglpWAaI/rW8P1BIwfCyXwwQlf4nqnCy75IHHIyluKneRebUEQUQuW2qFDVz ev7iIQqpvAKZ25WXf7mpooq8CTofTGxC7yFYUTtnWTpx+z9pY3CZfas8v+vOGej9mUF7 kv6Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7WI7e2rKqpzb7FAzKOim15y9AHUfmZ8fQ+BEkpaAQnk=; b=Cij640Hrg9Kf1XqMdQfvfewL2/6nuOmkiqKhtS/kPujRAlp4FStY2oQE4WtYAEqUAZ OnfwFr0dQl8XsGyZy3UEIPnT503Rp2wGhbvVgBByz38fcP8MberLmJJAGTT5fW6NafYk KHzZ+oiZIVFXY15nRe/Avq4AXxbGteoQ+tM3XfBB9HJt91DYkb7mOI4aoS4PX4qPa0Tm epDck301hpCzd5QS5fmnJLz8oNZQWkqOptcnuuulSxp74xyM0YBa7Lvw+FS8lFhMQ1Af VeWtj2mx6JgRRjeUoMUCAdwI8TDAey0eH4ZL7RI/UvIeKZomaQxWPj9Bb/chwIcKtABf 5VQA== X-Received: by 10.180.90.134 with SMTP id bw6mr1863068wib.8.1366382599726; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.8.135 with SMTP id r7ls229439wia.45.gmail; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.20.68 with SMTP id l4mr2774464wie.7.1366382598402; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6af67de9-ce70-4e20-af69-a1acc87a840f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] 5 classes of sumti in Lojban and about a new word for "grammatical abstraction" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_604_25866814.1366382596032" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_604_25866814.1366382596032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, April 19, 2013 4:30:19 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: > > > > > On 19 April 2013 05:25, la gleki >wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: >> >> for historical record: this 5-way distinction was first heard by me from >> tsani. it's not mine. mine is *lo si'o apstrake*. >> >> The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represented >>> indirectly, e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}. >>> >>> This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno words. Is this usage >>> correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, then the type of >>> pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, there is type >>> opaqueness in pipno2. >>> >> >> pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i, for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even >> tried to guess what it could mean) >> > > Haha, I wrote that last response on my iPod, and for some reason, it wants > pipno instead of pilno. > wait, your ipod understands lojban????? e'o do ciksi gije skicu > I guess this one slipped through. > > >> >> >>> {.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise .imi citka lo selpli} >>> >> >> well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinction is >> worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both. >> >> >> > > It's not that quotations can be both. It's simply that they form a > grammatical class to themselves, distinct from any other. Text is abstract > in that it doesn't have physical representations in our world. It's a > construct of the mind and without something to interpret what's on the > paper or the screen, it's just a very regular-looking picture. On the other > hand, text is far more concrete than a bridi or event, in the sense that it > isn't bounded in time or space or have any other, more complicated > interactions with other grammatical constructs. > > That's why I don't like your separation into apstrake/naly'apstrake; it > isn't worthwhile. > vi'o > Somethings can be construed as both, and the distinction you're trying to > make doesn't advance our understanding of Lojban. On the other hand, > classifying sumti into five (or six) classes is more worthwhile, because > that distinction is more meaningful. You can put dacti in namcu places, and > you can't put bridi in selsku places. > > More directed at latro'a: is it sensible to roll together bridi and fancu, > in the sense that bridi are simply parameterless fancu? It reduces the > number of classes to five, and when beta-reducing, it's what happens > usually. (Sometimes the beta-reduction leads to a nu... Maybe we should > think about that some more.) > pardon my ignorance but arent {ni} and {ka} derived from klani and ckaji? > > .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > >> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> >>> Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to >>> call ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the >>> apstrake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm >>> uncertain that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle >>> because of the {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by >>> themselves to me. >>> >>> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki wrote: >>> >>>> apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2 >>>> >>>> All lojban constructs can be divided either to >>>> {apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku} >>>> or {naly'apstrake}: {namcu}, {dacti}. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {apstrake}. Alternatives are {astrato} >>>> (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Mandarin chou1xiang4}. >>>> >>>> {sucta} has been misused for this concept. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> Visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en >>> . >>> For more options, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_604_25866814.1366382596032 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, April 19, 2013 4:30:19 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:



On 19 April 2013 05:25, la gleki <= gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:20:10= PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

for historical record: this 5-wa= y distinction was first heard by me from tsani. it's not mine. mine is l= o si'o apstrake.

The thing about selsku is that some text cannot be represente= d indirectly, e.g. zo quotes of non-selbri, such as {zo ui}. 

This raises a question. We frequently say we pilno word= s. Is this usage correct? If we let pilno3 be a function involving pilno2, = then the type of pilno2 comes from that selbri and we're safe. Otherwise, t= here is type opaqueness in pipno2.

pilno2, not pipno2 (u'i,= for a moment i thought pipno2 existed! i even tried to guess what it could= mean)

Haha, I wrote that last = response on my iPod, and for some reason, it wants pipno instead of pilno.<= /div>

wait, your ipod und= erstands lojban????? e'o do ciksi gije skicu

 = ;
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
I guess this one slipped through.
 
 
=
{.i mi pilno zo coi .i mi pilno lo plise= .imi citka lo selpli}

well, now im really not sure if apstrake/naly'apstrake distinction = is worth considering. Definitely quotations can be both.

 

It's= not that quotations can be both. It's simply that they form a grammatical = class to themselves, distinct from any other. Text is abstract in that it d= oesn't have physical representations in our world. It's a construct of the = mind and without something to interpret what's on the paper or the screen, = it's just a very regular-looking picture. On the other hand, text is far mo= re concrete than a bridi or event, in the sense that it isn't bounded in ti= me or space or have any other, more complicated interactions with other gra= mmatical constructs.

That's why I don't like your separation into apstrake/n= aly'apstrake; it isn't worthwhile.

vi'o
 
Somethi= ngs can be construed as both, and the distinction you're trying to make doe= sn't advance our understanding of Lojban. On the other hand, classifying su= mti into five (or six) classes is more worthwhile, because that distinction= is more meaningful. You can put dacti in namcu places, and you can't put b= ridi in selsku places.

More directed at latro'a: is it sensible to roll togeth= er bridi and fancu, in the sense that bridi are simply parameterless fancu?= It reduces the number of classes to five, and when beta-reducing, it's wha= t happens usually. (Sometimes the beta-reduction leads to a nu... Maybe we = should think about that some more.)

pardon my ignorance but arent {ni} and {ka} derived from k= lani and ckaji?

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
 

On Apr 17, 2013, at 20:45, Ian = Johnson <blindb...@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Technically you are missing zilkai/selbri as well as whatever we want to ca= ll ni abstractors (which are also functions), both of which are in the apst= rake category naturally. That said, interesting proposal, but I'm uncertain= that selsku is in the same category as the rest. It's subtle because of th= e {se du'u} indirect discourse trick, but selsku seem to be by themselves t= o me.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
apstrake x1 is a grammatical abstraction of type x2

All lojban constructs can be divided either to 
{apstrake}: {bridi}, {fasnu}, {selsku}
or {naly'apstrake}: {= namcu}, {dacti}.

Unfortunately JVS doesnt like {ap= strake}. Alternatives are {astrato} (from Italian) or tcosiango {from Manda= rin chou1xiang4}.

{sucta} has been misused for this concept.
<= span>

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To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.=

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
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