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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
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Back to the original question, or rather the subsection on which language t=
o learn.=A0 If you are short on time or patience, then go for toki pona.=A0=
 Although the claim that you can learn it in a day is a bit optimistic, you=
 can produce reasonable sentences which say what you mean by the end of the=
 day and pretty much read everything by the end of a week of writing to the=
 various tp lists.=A0 The vocabulary is strange but, at only 125 words or s=
o long, easily mastered.=A0 The grammar is very restricted and simple; the =
hardest thing will be expressing any complex ideas (and dealing with number=
s, of which there are virtually none).=A0 There are a couple of unofficial =
lesson sets which are adequate for this language.=20
If you are a bit more ambitious, try Esperanto.=A0 You will probably be abl=
e to get the gist of things in Esperanto right from the start, since much o=
f the vocabulary is more or less familiar (the more so the more you know of=
 Latin,=A0 Greek, some Romance Languages, German, and English) and the gram=
mar is familiar from all the mentioned languages.=A0 The 16 Rules will get =
you through many of the details and learning the pronoun system takes care =
of much of the rest.=A0 But writing it is harder, since you don't know whic=
h of the available forms -- from all the languages listed -- are actually u=
sed for the meaning you have in mind.=A0 Sometimes your favorite is not use=
d at all and sometimes it is used but in a slightly different meaning from =
what you want.=A0 But international and scientific words are all available =
immediately.=A0 For English speakers, remembering agreement, plurals in j r=
ather than s, and the accusative case are the big problems.=A0 There are
 dozens of good primers in English (and every other major language).
Lojban is more ambitious still,=A0 since there are no familiar vocabulary a=
nd even the "basic" vocabulary is 3000 words or so.=A0 The grammar of simpl=
e sentences is simple but feels unfamiliar, since many "objects" are things=
 which would take prepositions in English.=A0 But once over that oddity, th=
ings run fairly smoothly for quite a while.=A0 In fact, almost none of the =
really complex pieces of Lojban are actually needed and those that are are =
easily analogized to familiar patterns in English.=A0 Unfortunately, there =
has not been until now a decent primer -- or even a really bad one, so the =
process of learning what you really need and what is window dressing or adv=
anced work has to be by trial and error.=A0 Using the beginners list is a g=
ood idea in that people on it tend to be at a lower level and still learnin=
g rudiments -- for all they do try to fly too early.=A0 Folks on this list =
tend to be a bit better and also terribly fond of esoterica -- not good
 role models, in short.


________________________________
 From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20


On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UTC+4, Betsemes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
>>> Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking clean. I=
=20
>>> only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'm ready=
=20
>>> to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending=20
>>> frequency (that thread was a godsend).=20
>>=20
>> oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now.=20
>
>Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it.=20
>Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished?=20
>

It is finished (see the last message that i sent 40 minutes ago in that thr=
ead). It is finished at least how i understand it. I checked all the words =
sorted by frequency till No 4043 =A0and then added the rest of the words fr=
om jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are enough both for flashcards and MultiLin=
g. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute frequency of only 11 so estimation erro=
r was likely to be high.
However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those w=
ho learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well =
even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components.

P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra la tatoebas

--=20
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--=20
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---6906265-1898317981-1366476166=:27815
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Back to the original =
question, or rather the subsection on which language to learn.&nbsp; If you=
 are short on time or patience, then go for toki pona.&nbsp; Although the c=
laim that you can learn it in a day is a bit optimistic, you can produce re=
asonable sentences which say what you mean by the end of the day and pretty=
 much read everything by the end of a week of writing to the various tp lis=
ts.&nbsp; The vocabulary is strange but, at only 125 words or so long, easi=
ly mastered.&nbsp; The grammar is very restricted and simple; the hardest t=
hing will be expressing any complex ideas (and dealing with numbers, of whi=
ch there are virtually none).&nbsp; There are a couple of unofficial lesson=
 sets which are adequate for this language. <br>If you are a bit more ambit=
ious, try Esperanto.&nbsp; You will probably be able to get the gist
 of things in Esperanto right from the start, since much of the vocabulary =
is more or less familiar (the more so the more you know of Latin,&nbsp; Gre=
ek, some Romance Languages, German, and English) and the grammar is familia=
r from all the mentioned languages.&nbsp; The 16 Rules will get you through=
 many of the details and learning the pronoun system takes care of much of =
the rest.&nbsp; But writing it is harder, since you don't know which of the=
 available forms -- from all the languages listed -- are actually used for =
the meaning you have in mind.&nbsp; Sometimes your favorite is not used at =
all and sometimes it is used but in a slightly different meaning from what =
you want.&nbsp; But international and scientific words are all available im=
mediately.&nbsp; For English speakers, remembering agreement, plurals in j =
rather than s, and the accusative case are the big problems.&nbsp; There ar=
e dozens of good primers in English (and every other major
 language).<br>Lojban is more ambitious still,&nbsp; since there are no fam=
iliar vocabulary and even the "basic" vocabulary is 3000 words or so.&nbsp;=
 The grammar of simple sentences is simple but feels unfamiliar, since many=
 "objects" are things which would take prepositions in English.&nbsp; But o=
nce over that oddity, things run fairly smoothly for quite a while.&nbsp; I=
n fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually nee=
ded and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in Englis=
h.&nbsp; Unfortunately, there has not been until now a decent primer -- or =
even a really bad one, so the process of learning what you really need and =
what is window dressing or advanced work has to be by trial and error.&nbsp=
; Using the beginners list is a good idea in that people on it tend to be a=
t a lower level and still learning rudiments -- for all they do try to fly =
too early.&nbsp; Folks on this list tend to be a bit better and also
 terribly fond of esoterica -- not good role models, in short.<br><div><spa=
n><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: =
times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr=
"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font=
-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> la gleki &lt;gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&gt;=
<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegrou=
ps.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday=
, April 20, 2013 9:24 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:=
</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?<br> </font> </div> =
<div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1373840424"><br><br>On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UT=
C+4, Betsemes wrote:<blockquote class=3D"yiv1373840424gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">O=
n Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki &lt;<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">=
gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking =
clean. I
<br>&gt;&gt; only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'=
m ready
<br>&gt;&gt; to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending
<br>&gt;&gt; frequency (that thread was a godsend).
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now.
<br>
<br>Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it.
<br>Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished?
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is finished (see the last message t=
hat i sent 40 minutes ago in that thread). It is finished at least how i un=
derstand it. I checked all the words sorted by frequency till No 4043 &nbsp=
;and then added the rest of the words from jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are=
 enough both for flashcards and MultiLing. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute=
 frequency of only 11 so estimation error was likely to be high.</div><div>=
However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those w=
ho learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well =
even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra =
la tatoebas</div><div><br></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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