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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:31:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Radical Change (was:  [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?)
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I hope we don't often discuss what to radically change in Lojban, at least =
before we discuss whether Lojban needs any radical changes.=A0 That involve=
s going back to a specification of what a logical language is and seeing in=
 what ways Lojban falls short (or overachieves).=A0 In a paper I was writin=
g for LCC5 (but dropped) I worked with the minimal definition: a monparse l=
anguage in which the parse of any discourse revealed its logical structure,=
 and looked at what could be added back to the logical structure derived fr=
om a discourse that would keep the structure but be "sufficiently languagey=
".=A0 Given that definition and approach, Lojban needs no radical change, a=
nd few minor tinkerings (vocabulary excepted).=A0 What definitions and appr=
oaches suggest the need for something more radical?


________________________________
 From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20


On Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:24:12 AM UTC+4, shanoxilt wrote:
Obviously, the answer is that you should do what you most want to do. =A0
>>
>Follow your dreams. Chances are you haven't found the right way (for=20
>>
>you) to study Lojban yet;=20
>I'm terrible at studying. I can't seem to stick with it consistently. :(
>=A0
>Would you like to tell us how you did it so far? What are the problems you=
 are encountering that make you so frustrated.=A0
>>
>The logical aspect of the language is a bit counterintuitive, perhaps unna=
tural. Also, gismu with more than 3 sumti are difficult to remember. In add=
ition to this, there is always a new discussion about reforms despite the f=
act that so few have learned standard Lojban.=A0

mi na jinvi lo du'u ma'a so'iroi casnu lo srana be lo nu galfi lo jbobau i =
sa'u ma'a casnu lo vrici smuni ja gerna nabmi poi zasti bau lo so'a bangu
i je'u so'u da poi se terdi cu casnu lo simsa i la'e di'u mupli pa lo krinu=
 lo nu mi prami lo jbogu'e cecmu i uinairu'e lo jbopre po'o ba'uru'e casnu =
lo cinri ke bangu stura pevpagbu

I don't think that we discuss very often what to radically change in Lojban=
. We simple discuss various semantic or grammatical problems that exist in =
almost all languages. The fact is that very few people on the earth discuss=
 similar things. This is one of the reasons why i like Lojban community. It=
's a bit disappointing that only (<-- yes, I'm exaggerating a bit) Lojbanis=
ts discuss interesting aspects of language structure.


=A0
>Sorry if this wasn't helpful, but I can neither in good conscience force=
=20
>>>
>you to stay if you don't want to, nor is it my desire that you leave=20
>>>
>Lojban behind. It's entirely up to you. If you need help with Lojban, we=
=20
>>>
>are there for you.=20
>>>
>Thank you. I just don't want to disappoint myself and other Lojbani. If yo=
u recall, I am one of the moderators of /r/Lojban on Reddit so it seems I s=
hould have mastered this language by now.
>=A0
>
>>
>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=20
>>
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">I hope we don't often=
 discuss what to radically change in Lojban, at least before we discuss whe=
ther Lojban needs any radical changes.&nbsp; That involves going back to a =
specification of what a logical language is and seeing in what ways Lojban =
falls short (or overachieves).&nbsp; In a paper I was writing for LCC5 (but=
 dropped) I worked with the minimal definition: a monparse language in whic=
h the parse of any discourse revealed its logical structure, and looked at =
what could be added back to the logical structure derived from a discourse =
that would keep the structure but be "sufficiently languagey".&nbsp; Given =
that definition and approach, Lojban needs no radical change, and few minor=
 tinkerings (vocabulary excepted).&nbsp; What definitions and approaches su=
ggest the need for something more
 radical?<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"fon=
t-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div =
style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 1=
2pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> =
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> la gleki &lt;gleki.is=
.my.name@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span>=
</b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sen=
t:</span></b> Friday, April 19, 2013 11:36 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-we=
ight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban=
?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1421946083"><br><br>On Saturday, April 20, 2013 12:24:12 AM U=
TC+4, shanoxilt wrote:<blockquote class=3D"yiv1421946083gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;=
"><blockquote class=3D"yiv1421946083gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-l=
eft:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Obviously, the answ=
er is that you should do what you most want to do. &nbsp;<br></blockquote><=
blockquote class=3D"yiv1421946083gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left=
:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Follow your dreams. Ch=
ances are you haven't found the right way (for=20
<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"yiv1421946083gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">you)=
 to study Lojban yet; </blockquote><div>I'm terrible at studying. I can't s=
eem to stick with it consistently. :(</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"yiv1421946083gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Would you like to tell us how you di=
d it so far? What are the problems you are encountering that make you so fr=
ustrated.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<div>The logical aspect of the language is a bit counterintuitive, perhaps =
unnatural. Also, gismu with more than 3 sumti are difficult to remember. In=
 addition to this, there is always a new discussion about reforms despite t=
he fact that so few have learned standard Lojban.&nbsp;</div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>mi na jinvi lo du'u ma'a so'iroi casnu lo srana be lo nu=
 galfi lo jbobau i sa'u ma'a casnu lo vrici smuni ja gerna nabmi poi zasti =
bau lo so'a bangu</div><div>i je'u so'u da poi se terdi cu casnu lo simsa i=
 la'e di'u mupli pa lo krinu lo nu mi prami lo jbogu'e cecmu i uinairu'e lo=
 jbopre po'o ba'uru'e casnu lo cinri ke bangu stura pevpagbu</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I don't think that we discuss very often what to radically chang=
e in Lojban. We simple discuss various semantic or grammatical problems tha=
t exist in almost all languages. The fact is that very few people on the ea=
rth discuss similar things. This is one of the reasons why i like
 Lojban community. It's a bit disappointing that only (&lt;-- yes, I'm exag=
gerating a bit) Lojbanists discuss interesting aspects of language structur=
e.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1421946083gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote><blockquote class=3D"yiv14219=
46083gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;">Sorry if this wasn't helpful, but I can neither in=
 good conscience force=20
<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>you to stay if you do=
n't want to, nor is it my desire that you leave=20
<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>Lojban behind. It's e=
ntirely up to you. If you need help with Lojban, we=20
<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>are there for you.
<br></blockquote></blockquote><div>Thank you. I just don't want to disappoi=
nt myself and other Lojbani. If you recall, I am one of the moderators of /=
r/Lojban on Reddit so it seems I should have mastered this language by now.=
</div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
<br></blockquote></blockquote>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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