Received: from mail-ve0-f184.google.com ([209.85.128.184]:54296) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UTdCC-0007r9-50 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:48 -0700 Received: by mail-ve0-f184.google.com with SMTP id db10sf49999veb.11 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:date:from:to:cc:message-id :in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=R+0vS6hFKfi3fe2TJGYs4yQ5UMRtEadqwtD827ChICE=; b=m8pMX4kv8qLglo6jGj+7c62IZKHv34FdmEXNEBgz46ywVO2+V1NqvdjYppGEd/a/ox y3W+GyTlOizXwEOY+1EiFiBCnPMT7IyvasJZgKxotAdW6Zn6SWLv7z2cjUCkqbCAEIu+ c9WhEhbwWQFoSMMj73p2ZEPFUhp3PsWA+pp9qZc9nYlJSSPopjXePS1loPT1QEMQvLQj Bn0x+T7e9EFrAdkoWZ5hM9NG5fda6jaBTAvpAPtdu+RnrNSr4Ji24jz2DjMlcNb8dhGF Hsm1lcbxxaKs1EaB5p6gRh07IgREmhh33IQq09GmFs5mJEBjGAkJW5OEMjEf8TUQRtIJ YKyA== X-Received: by 10.182.152.34 with SMTP id uv2mr180506obb.23.1366485089013; Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.38.7 with SMTP id c7ls214491obk.75.gmail; Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.34.169 with SMTP id a9mr187892obj.42.1366485088158; Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:11:27 -0700 (PDT) From: shanoxilt To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: John E Clifford Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1366476166.27815.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <1366476166.27815.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_261_4539426.1366485087359" X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.2 X-Spam_score_int: 12 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > > In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually > needed and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in > English. But if I'm just going to use Lojban as encoded English, what's the point of learning it? [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (osiris_hades_deathland[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.2 FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2 hotmail.com 'From' address, but no 'Received:' 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature ------=_Part_261_4539426.1366485087359 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually > needed and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in > English. But if I'm just going to use Lojban as encoded English, what's the point of learning it? > Unfortunately, there has not been until now a decent primer -- or even a > really bad one, so the process of learning what you really need and what is > window dressing or advanced work has to be by trial and error. Using the > beginners list is a good idea in that people on it tend to be at a lower > level and still learning rudiments -- for all they do try to fly too > early. Folks on this list tend to be a bit better and also terribly fond > of esoterica -- not good role models, in short. > I've noticed this. :\ ------------------------------ *From:* la gleki > *To:* loj...@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:24 AM *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UTC+4, Betsemes wrote: On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki wrote: >> Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking clean. I >> only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'm ready >> to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending >> frequency (that thread was a godsend). > > oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now. Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it. Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished? It is finished (see the last message that i sent 40 minutes ago in that thread). It is finished at least how i understand it. I checked all the words sorted by frequency till No 4043 and then added the rest of the words from jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are enough both for flashcards and MultiLing. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute frequency of only 11 so estimation error was likely to be high. However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those who learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components. P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra la tatoebas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_261_4539426.1366485087359 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In fact, almost none of the re= ally complex pieces of Lojban are actually needed and those that are are ea= sily analogized to familiar patterns in English.

But if I'm just going to use Lojban as encoded English, what's the po= int of learning it?
 
  Unfortunately, there has not been until now a decent pr= imer -- or even a really bad one, so the process of learning what you reall= y need and what is window dressing or advanced work has to be by trial and = error.  Using the beginners list is a good idea in that people on it t= end to be at a lower level and still learning rudiments -- for all they do = try to fly too early.  Folks on this list tend to be a bit better and = also terribly fond of esoterica -- not good role models, in short.

I've noticed this. :\ 


From: la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
= Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2= 013 9:24 AM
Subject: Re:= [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?



On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UTC+4, Betsemes wrote:<= blockquote style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p= adding-left:1ex">On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking = clean. I
>> only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'= m ready
>> to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending
>> frequency (that thread was a godsend).
>
> oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now.

Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it.
Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished?

It is finished (see the last message t= hat i sent 40 minutes ago in that thread). It is finished at least how i un= derstand it. I checked all the words sorted by frequency till No 4043  = ;and then added the rest of the words from jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are= enough both for flashcards and MultiLing. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute= frequency of only 11 so estimation error was likely to be high.
= However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those w= ho learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well = even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components.

P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra = la tatoebas

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut.
 
 


=20

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