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Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Analogizing isn't encoding.=A0 Lojban is basically the language of logic, w=
hich, for all sorts of historical reasons, is SAE, that is, English, by and=
 large.=A0 If you want something radically different, try Hopi or Menominee=
 (Whorf's favorites).=A0 Still, Lojban's vocabulary is not an English relex=
 (fairly obviously) nor is its basic grammar conceptually like English.=A0 =
It just is that the patterns of things turning up is more or less the same,=
 {lo du'u} and "that" for example (which just turned up in something today,=
 not perhaps a typical case).=A0 They are relatively easy to learn -- or wo=
uld be if rationally taught (but a word list and a pumping technique combin=
ed with a reference grammar is not rational teaching).


________________________________
 From: shanoxilt <osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Cc: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>=20
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20


In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually ne=
eded and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in Engli=
sh.

But if I'm just going to use Lojban as encoded English, what's the point of=
 learning it?=20
=A0
=A0 Unfortunately, there has not been until now a decent primer -- or even =
a really bad one, so the process of learning what you really need and what =
is window dressing or advanced work has to be by trial and error.=A0 Using =
the beginners list is a good idea in that people on it tend to be at a lowe=
r level and still learning rudiments -- for all they do try to fly too earl=
y.=A0 Folks on this list tend to be a bit better and also terribly fond of =
esoterica -- not good role models, in short.
>

I've noticed this. :\=A0


________________________________
 From: la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
=20


On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UTC+4, Betsemes wrote:
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:=20
>>> Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking clean. I=
=20
>>> only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'm ready=
=20
>>> to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending=20
>>> frequency (that thread was a godsend).=20
>>=20
>> oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now.=20
>
>Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it.=20
>Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished?=20
>

It is finished (see the last message that i sent 40 minutes ago in that thr=
ead). It is finished at least how i understand it. I checked all the words =
sorted by frequency till No 4043 =A0and then added the rest of the words fr=
om jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are enough both for flashcards and MultiLin=
g. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute frequency of only 11 so estimation erro=
r was likely to be high.
However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those w=
ho learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well =
even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components.

P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra la tatoebas

--=20
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0


--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Analogizing isn't enc=
oding.&nbsp; Lojban is basically the language of logic, which, for all sort=
s of historical reasons, is SAE, that is, English, by and large.&nbsp; If y=
ou want something radically different, try Hopi or Menominee (Whorf's favor=
ites).&nbsp; Still, Lojban's vocabulary is not an English relex (fairly obv=
iously) nor is its basic grammar conceptually like English.&nbsp; It just i=
s that the patterns of things turning up is more or less the same, {lo du'u=
} and "that" for example (which just turned up in something today, not perh=
aps a typical case).&nbsp; They are relatively easy to learn -- or would be=
 if rationally taught (but a word list and a pumping technique combined wit=
h a reference grammar is not rational teaching).<br><div><span><br></span><=
/div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new
 york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times ne=
w roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr s=
ize=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
bold;">From:</span></b> shanoxilt &lt;osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com&gt=
;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegro=
ups.com <br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> John E Cli=
fford &lt;kali9putra@yahoo.com&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=
;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, April 20, 2013 2:11 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning=
 Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv2082023291"><blockquote class=3D"yiv2082023291gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex;">In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actual=
ly needed and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in =
English.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>But if I'm just going to use Lojba=
n as encoded English, what's the point of learning it? </div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"yiv2082023291gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-=
left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">&nbsp; Unfortunate=
ly, there has not been until now a decent primer -- or even a really bad on=
e, so the process of learning what you really need and what is window dress=
ing or advanced work has to be by trial and error.&nbsp; Using the beginner=
s list is a good idea in that people on it tend to be at a lower level and =
still learning rudiments -- for all they do try to fly too early.&nbsp; Fol=
ks
 on this list tend to be a bit better and also
 terribly fond of esoterica -- not good role models, in short.<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I've noticed this. :\&nbsp;</div><div><span><br></s=
pan></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new y=
ork, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family:times new rom=
an, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"=
1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">=
From:</span></b> la gleki &lt;<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">gleki.is...@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> <a h=
ref=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">loj...@googlegroups.com</a> <br> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:24 AM<br=
> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Sho=
uld I quit learning Lojban?<br> </font> </div> <div><br>
<div><br><br>On Saturday, April 20, 2013 6:03:05 PM UTC+4, Betsemes wrote:<=
blockquote style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex;">On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:38 AM, la gleki &lt;<a href=3D"=
" rel=3D"nofollow">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; Mnemosyne is more robust and feature-rich while still looking =
clean. I
<br>&gt;&gt; only complained about a single flaw, but now it's fixed and I'=
m ready
<br>&gt;&gt; to import the whole of jbovlaste into it sorted by descending
<br>&gt;&gt; frequency (that thread was a godsend).
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; oh wait, i'll upload another freq dic now.
<br>
<br>Thank you for the warning. I'd regret it if I had already imported it.
<br>Could you tell us when your work on these lists is finished?
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is finished (see the last message t=
hat i sent 40 minutes ago in that thread). It is finished at least how i un=
derstand it. I checked all the words sorted by frequency till No 4043 &nbsp=
;and then added the rest of the words from jbovlaste. For me 4043 words are=
 enough both for flashcards and MultiLing. Anyway word No 4043 had absolute=
 frequency of only 11 so estimation error was likely to be high.</div><div>=
However, notice that it has cmavo clusters like {lonu} etc. I think those w=
ho learn lojban must be familiar with most frequent cmavo clusters as well =
even though their meaning can be directly derived from their components.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>P.S. au do ca'o jmina lo frili je sampu be do jufra =
la tatoebas</div><div><br></div>


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div> =20


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ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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