Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22a;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <ecdba916-d75f-4b0a-a8c1-7d196392710f@googlegroups.com>
References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com>
	<CAHxnAmLkohAij3yhDYdLeAOxFzVzB_9KeRP68xuO3vXyS7josQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<b3250e2a-abb8-46d7-902e-64dbb58183a3@googlegroups.com>
	<CAHxnAmLnVviBrDPB8iWRyVMxgaKjC93GUF0rbfm8HAZWstjK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<e742f7f8-6fdd-4fa2-b245-40fd55091873@googlegroups.com>
	<1366476166.27815.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<ecdba916-d75f-4b0a-a8c1-7d196392710f@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 18:33:14 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtgLYy1OPtYEHidHQ_6pnKsrrueLtYLyjQZhCkdpqCBxN-A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban?
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b418e99e2676f04dad26b7e
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--047d7b418e99e2676f04dad26b7e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:11 PM, shanoxilt <
osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com> wrote:

> In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually
>> needed and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in
>> English.
>
>
> But if I'm just going to use Lojban as encoded English, what's the point
> of learning it?
>
First, even for Lojban as it exists now, I think that comment was somewhat
overstated. The very basics are similar, that's true. Even somewhat more
complicated things can be fairly well approximated by straightforward
replacements. For example, FA (and the default ordering, as a special case)
are essentially verb-specific prepositions, and NU can often be translated
as various clause-introducing words like "that" and "to", etc. While
English lacks the tools for unambiguous clause separation that Lojban has,
only in rather complicated sentences does this tend to be a practical
problem. The real problem in my experience, which I had even before
learning Lojban, is that sufficiently getting complex English sentences to
behave the way you want results in them being intolerably awkward. (That
sentence exemplifies itself to a fair extent.) Complex Lojban sentences in
my experience "flow" nicer than their English counterparts, especially in
writing.

One of the most basic things that isn't nearly as easy to translate by
approximate replacement is things involving ka/ni. In particular, {zmadu}
and its various counterparts are quite structurally different from their
direct English counterparts, and because they take generic bridi rather
than just adjectives, they are also more extensible than their counterparts.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--047d7b418e99e2676f04dad26b7e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:11 PM, shanoxilt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">osiris_hades_deat=
hland@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
In fact, almost none of the really complex pieces of Lojban are actually ne=
eded and those that are are easily analogized to familiar patterns in Engli=
sh.</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>But if I&#39;m just going to use =
Lojban as encoded English, what&#39;s the point of learning it? </div>
</blockquote><div>First, even for Lojban as it exists now, I think that com=
ment was somewhat overstated. The very basics are similar, that&#39;s true.=
 Even somewhat more complicated things can be fairly well approximated by s=
traightforward replacements. For example, FA (and the default ordering, as =
a special case) are essentially=20
verb-specific prepositions, and NU can often be translated as various=20
clause-introducing words like &quot;that&quot; and &quot;to&quot;, etc. Whi=
le English lacks the tools for unambiguous clause separation that Lojban ha=
s, only in rather complicated sentences does this tend to be a practical pr=
oblem. The real problem in my experience, which I had even before learning =
Lojban, is that sufficiently getting complex English sentences to behave th=
e way you want results in them being intolerably awkward. (That sentence ex=
emplifies itself to a fair extent.) Complex Lojban sentences in my experien=
ce &quot;flow&quot; nicer than their English counterparts, especially in wr=
iting. <br>
<br> One of the most basic things that isn&#39;t nearly as easy to translat=
e by approximate replacement is things involving ka/ni. In particular, {zma=
du} and its various counterparts are quite structurally different from thei=
r direct English counterparts, and because they take generic bridi rather t=
han just adjectives, they are also more extensible than their counterparts.=
<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3De=
n">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--047d7b418e99e2676f04dad26b7e--