Received: from mail-ye0-f191.google.com ([209.85.213.191]:43975) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UVE5Q-0003U9-8h for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:47:27 -0700 Received: by mail-ye0-f191.google.com with SMTP id m15sf115678yen.28 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:46:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-received:x-beenthere:x-received:received-spf:from:to:subject:date :message-id:user-agent:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=and8/nuCHg/nPN5dI8xJoJkwt/8n/a5EY501xvEojjM=; b=YLCsCRnm0pM8/HMWOBtdocxNp70/6A+tpTa7FLIOycD6dFonT3ofo3FURiClE7YbkH QHoCiAL2GJsPVJpRKbISAV4Z8DLE7szjzXxzK/w0+j+ddedH1nhdWodkD8wB0YQGZNjc J43zItWLNQ0V+ifH60V+peZMtMI/ZP8SDHgCI8iDGMyXOTBz5ykMZfpMD5vg8j7zY65B J9ssTHE7YuJMpU5Lmmj6xrKy2HRpauZhp/xeKbLv+JYRNw/mIX0v5HoCrfr5QYHOqPMz R5w2uil57FTwzSJqNHQZKV7pqIyTxrWhGMgr1ruGlr44wu5e37Z0ddM0RlX0dIXLKb99 rWdA== X-Received: by 10.49.95.231 with SMTP id dn7mr3418397qeb.39.1366865217518; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.63.228 with SMTP id j4ls1081201qes.80.gmail; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.139.230 with SMTP id c66mr19114954yhj.55.1366865215220; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chausie ([2001:470:8:42:2c0:f0ff:fe3b:b5b5]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a64si335307yhi.1.2013.04.24.21.46.54 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 2001:470:8:42:2c0:f0ff:fe3b:b5b5 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@bezitopo.org) client-ip=2001:470:8:42:2c0:f0ff:fe3b:b5b5; Received: from caracal.localnet (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B621597 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2013 00:46:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Should I quit learning Lojban? Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 00:46:53 -0400 Message-ID: <2623322.AlfTFKHnKh@caracal> User-Agent: KMail/4.8.5 (Linux/3.2.0-39-generic; KDE/4.8.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <1366823032.81863.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5d22d3a4-46ca-4f77-bff4-5aa52f193e13@googlegroups.com> <51778037.3060405@lojban.org> <1366823032.81863.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: phma@bezitopo.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 2001:470:8:42:2c0:f0ff:fe3b:b5b5 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@bezitopo.org) smtp.mail=phma@bezitopo.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:03:52 John E Clifford wrote: > The historical roots of logical symbolism in Western culture and languages > is too long to get into here (see Bochenski for some nice discussion) but > the essential "Europeanness" (not actually, but that idea get fixed with > "SAE") goes far deeper. Whether speakers of European languages would have > come up with Lojban without formal logic intervening is hard to judge; the > point is, the Hopi wouldn't have, even with formal logic. Looking at the list of conlangs, it seems that most are invented by speakers of European languages, but many of the languages are hardly SAE. I don't know much about Hopi, but it may simply not be a Hopi thing to do to invent languages. Lojban is definitely not SAE, for reasons I've listed before. In particular, the tense system is completely unlike that of the SAE languages. Pierre -- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.